Working with Karma, the Law of Cause & Effect

Robert Maldonado  00:21

Welcome back!

Debra Maldonado  00:22

Hello!

Robert Maldonado  00:23

This week’s soul session is about karma.

Debra Maldonado  00:26

The law of karma.

Robert Maldonado  00:28

And this is not your mother’s karma. We’re going to try to focus it on the East-West perspective, so that we can use it in our everyday life, in our psychology and our coaching, and our relationships, all that good stuff.

Debra Maldonado  00:49

Well, everyone’s heard the word karma. So, let’s define karma. The way we see it, because there’s many definitions.  John Lennon famously said, karma is going to get you.

Robert Maldonado  01:01

Instant Karma.

Debra Maldonado  01:02

Instant Karma. So what is what is karma? How would you describe it? I always think of it as the law and effect.

Robert Maldonado  01:11

The cause of law and effect. Cause and effect. That’s from physics, actually. And it’s a Western concept in physics. It operates on that principle, or it’s one of the laws of physics. But in thinking about karma as a concept, it really comes from Eastern philosophy. And one of the things we have to consider is that in Eastern philosophy, the way they wrote it, and the way it was intended, was a very different paradigm than the West, which is physics and science. In East, or in that particular era of early philosophical development in the East, their paradigm was one of consciousness. What this means is that they did not see material as the foundation of reality. They acknowledge material, of course we’re experiencing it, but that the foundation of reality was consciousness, or awareness, like a primal pure awareness, that it pre-existed humanity, and was always there. So, from that perspective, now, if we read what they were saying about karma, we can make better sense of it instead of reading it from the western perspective of physical universe.

Debra Maldonado  02:47

Like you were saying earlier, it’s not like we have this little ghost inside of us that has this experience and then goes into another body, another little ghost in that materials perspective.

Robert Maldonado  03:01

Right. So, let’s back up to the basics because everyone talks about good and bad karma. For example, from the conscious perspective, there is no good or bad.

Debra Maldonado  03:13

It’s a non-dual.

Robert Maldonado  03:14

Yeah, that’s not what they meant. It wasn’t about finding a sin and virtue like in the West, what you did wrong and what you did, or being punished for your sins and what you did wrong by fate, or by God. It wasn’t that way.

Debra Maldonado  03:34

Well, and even if you just logically look at that, who decides what’s good or bad?

Robert Maldonado  03:38

That’s right. So, we can think of karma more in terms of conditioning. And actually the Gita, which is part of the Eastern Upanishads or the philosophy that we go by, it mentions this idea of conditioning. So, it’s very closely allied with this idea of karma. It’s simply that whatever environment you’re in, that environment will shape your behavior. It will condition you based on the rewards and punishments that you experience. Now, this is well tested in the West through behaviorism. If anybody’s interested in the works of Skinner, B. F. Skinner, brilliant mind in western psychology, just figured out a lot of things of how conditioning operates, it’s operant conditioning. And essentially, it works on this principle that every action you take has a consequence. But the consequence is neutral just simply a consequence but we…

Debra Maldonado  04:50

So, you throw a ball and it falls down. It has a consequence. And then you decide whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.

Robert Maldonado  04:58

That’s right. You get up in the morning, you go sit in a cubicle. At the end of the week…

Debra Maldonado  05:04

You sit in a cubicle! 

Robert Maldonado  05:05

I was speaking from my own experience. At the end of the week you get paid. That’s a consequence of your action of going and sitting there and doing… pretending to work

Debra Maldonado  05:15

Being nice to your boss. Going on Facebook all day and pretending to work.

Robert Maldonado  05:21

So, let’s say that consequence of the action has a conditioning effect, which simply means this: that you’re going to tend to repeat that action. Because of the reinforcement of the action.

Debra Maldonado  05:38

If you have a positive response, or a positive experience, we tend to repeat them. And when we have what we call as an unpleasant experience, we tend to avoid that or find ways to…

Robert Maldonado  05:54

That’s right. Well, there’s a whole science behind this.

Debra Maldonado  05:57

Avoidance. Avoidant personality.

Robert Maldonado  06:00

If you’ve ever taken a psychology course, you know there’s like a whole science behind behaviorism. But we’re looking at it in the context of karma. So there is a conditioning effect of all the actions that we take.

Debra Maldonado  06:17

So, our brain stores it in our mind, our brain, our body. And not just our brain, actually, physically, we remember how we feel. And I remember when I was a hypnotherapist, people would have memories that they didn’t really know what it was from, but they would have like a tactical, emotional response to something. And they were like, I don’t know why I’m afraid of a certain thing. And it’s because the whole mind body is taking on this information, not just I think this is bad, or I think this is good. It’s more of that emotional response. So it’s stored emotionally?

Robert Maldonado  06:53

It’s stored in every possible way you can imagine. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado  06:57

So we can protect ourselves and from danger and…

Robert Maldonado  07:01

Yeah, that’s the idea. If you look at nature, you have a stage that nature sets up with trees, and brushes and water and all the elements. And then the creature or the organism is responding to that environment. And according to what kind of feedback it gets from the environment, that shapes its behavior. And therefore, over time, organisms fit into their environment really well. It’s almost like they’re part of it. You can’t really understand the organism outside of that environment.

Debra Maldonado  07:43

And so, this happens not only from personal experience, but collectively a family, the agreements we make unconsciously around our family, culture, society. It really is beyond just even… Well, it’s your personal perspective, but there’s more than just your decision on what is good or bad, or how to respond to things. Because you watch… I remember too, they say that you would be afraid of bugs if one of your parents would react in fear around a spider, we learn that… As a baby, we don’t think spiders are bad. But my mother, God bless her, screams every time there’s a spider and just freaks out. And being a kid, you just learn to get that tense feeling. So we have these things that we didn’t even decide what was pleasant or unpleasant. A lot of times we adapted to what other people taught us. The rules of the… or just through nonverbal responses and implications.

Robert Maldonado  08:50

Yeah, because… Well as human beings, because we’re coming from the natural world, those mechanisms are in place that we’re going to learn from the experiences we have with the environment, and it’s going to shape the way we respond to it. Because, for survival purposes, that works. It worked for millions and millions of years for all these organisms, including us.

Debra Maldonado  09:17

So it’s really a survival mechanism?

Robert Maldonado  09:19

It’s a survival mechanism. It helps us fit into the environment and learn to adapt to it.

Debra Maldonado  09:26

So how did it become a spiritual teaching then?

Robert Maldonado  09:33

Right. Well, because if you think now, if you start to think, philosophically, what are the implications of this? Now, philosophy is a natural aspect of human nature.

Debra Maldonado  09:46

Asking why. Well, I think for…

Robert Maldonado  09:49

If you notice, kids will always ask the right questions. Why is the sky blue? Why do we do what we do? Those kinds of things.

Debra Maldonado  09:56

Why is God in heaven? Why can’t I see him? And all those things. So, can this karma if you… I guess, the sages came up with their idea of karma but a lot of people think they use karma as a way to reason why bad things happen to them, that they must have done something bad in their past or…

Robert Maldonado  10:14

Well, let’s look at the implications. So if you understand this, if you observe nature and you’re understanding this principle of conditioning, of adaptation, the ultimate conclusion is that you’re not free. You are a product of your environment and your experiences. You’re not making free choices. You’re not really…

Debra Maldonado  10:42

You’re like a programmed robot.

Robert Maldonado  10:43

Very much so. You’re conditioned by your immediate environment, the actions that you have taken, and the consequences of those actions. And that determines how you play out your life, essentially. And if you take it to the ultimate conclusion, that means you’re going to play out a pattern of behaviors and responses determined by your early experiences. You’re going to simply repeat them in a sense. So, that conclusion for the early seers was unacceptable. Because that means when we’re not really conscious, in a sense, we’re not really…

Debra Maldonado  11:28

We’re just animals or just a part of the animal kingdom.

Robert Maldonado  11:31

Yeah, we’re just living an automatic life without really having a conscious choice, a real choice. So, the question then becomes what determines your destiny? And if you’re going by this principle, your destiny is determined by your past experiences because you can only play out that pattern that you acquired from early experiences.

Debra Maldonado  12:02

So, the spiritual seers were finding a way to work with the mind to escape the karma. Because what their goal was for the community, was it because they wanted to help people alleviate suffering? Like the Buddhists and the Vedanta. It’s like, how do I… Why is all this suffering in the world? They’re probably asking that question. Why are people repeating these patterns? And why are there wars? And all those questions. And they’re trying to figure out like, Well, how do we… There must be a better way to live?

Robert Maldonado  12:36

Well, yeah. If you notice, things appear to run on their own. And that’s the principle of karma right there.

Debra Maldonado  12:44

Autopilot.

Robert Maldonado  12:45

That nobody understands, well, who’s driving or who’s causing this. And people come up with all kinds of ideas of why things happen the way they do. But it’s simply the principle of karma exponentially applied to the group and the society in the world. What we see as results of our human actions are the results of karma. That law of karma is operating in everything in everyone’s lives. And so, the consequences that we see in the world, they are the totality of our karma. Yeah, the collective karma in a sense. So, the question is, are we stuck in that destiny? It’s called determinism and philosophy. Are we determined? Is our future determined essentially already? Can you see somebody and just by looking at what they’re doing now, does that determine the rest of their history? And the answer would be that yes, if this person is not conscious in any real way, but they’re simply playing out their karmic conditioning, you can pretty much see where their life is going to lead them.

Debra Maldonado  14:08

There’s a famous saying in psychology, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. And so, we try to get people to change that we’re in relationships with or our parents to change, or our boss to change, or even ourselves to change… and that feeling of powerlessness to that. I think when we get to that idea of what determines your destiny, is that, I think, number one is owning that you can change it and that you’re the cause of cause and effect. There’s no external cause. And I think what people, when you have an experience externally, you think that thing is the cause of my suffering. Losing my job or having no money in the bank, or having someone reject me romantically, that’s the cause of my suffering. Instead of saying, No, the cause is in my mind. My mind is telling me, this is bad. And that’s the cause of my suffering. And so, we need to pull back and take responsibility for the cause. And then so, if there isn’t enough money, there isn’t enough love, then if I’m the cause, at first, you don’t want to blame yourself. But actually, it’s not blaming. It’s actually taking responsibility and taking control of your own destiny.

Robert Maldonado  15:27

Very much so.

INTERMISSION  15:29

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Robert Maldonado  16:02

So, the seers, say the knowledge that we see in the Upanishads is saying there is a way out of this conundrum, that you do not have to live out this pre-determined fate for yourself.

Debra Maldonado  16:24

In Buddhism, they call it the wheel of karma that you’re caught up in it. But there’s a way to escape the karma.

Robert Maldonado  16:31

There’s a way to transcend it.

Debra Maldonado  16:33

Transcend it. Not run away from it. It’ll find you.

Robert Maldonado  16:38

Yeah, in essence, because we’re not really trying to escape it. Because it would be like saying, I want to get rid of my body.

Debra Maldonado  16:48

Or making it bad. Again, judging it.

Robert Maldonado  16:50

Yeah, exactly, buying into that duality of good and bad. It simply is the way we exist in the world.

Debra Maldonado  16:57

And so, that’s actually a very great idea that not wanting to escape karma because… we work with people all the time that have goals – love success and health. And they’re like, I want to change this pattern, and they’re pushing. They want to just get rid of the pattern. I want to stop this from happening. But in that wrestling with it, and wanting to get rid of it, they actually keep creating it. So, it’s more than just hating the pattern. It’s going deeper than that.

Robert Maldonado  17:29

That’s it. So, it’s important to understand these principles that are contained in the law of karma and translate them into what a psychology say about that? Is there evidence for that? And there is. There’s very good evidence that that principle is operating continuously in everyone’s life. And now the question is, Well, how do we work with it? What do we do with this knowledge so that we can free our mind? And it has to do with the approach that we take to the mind. Because like we were saying, if you approach it in the sense that I need to get rid of this, it’s something bad…

Debra Maldonado  18:08

It’s a bad, bad, bad pattern, I want to get rid of.

Robert Maldonado  18:12

I’m buying into the law already that there’s good and bad and that there’s things I need to push away and things that I need to move towards. In other words, I’m already caught in karma again, if I use that principle.

Debra Maldonado  18:27

I often say to people, we were just having this conversation in one of our private groups, a private client group. You have to be okay with where you are right here with non-judgment to move forward. And it’s such a hard thing, because it’s like, Well, I don’t want to be in this place of not moving or stuck. But the more you resist the stuckness, the more stuck you’ll feel. You just have to relax around it and really examine what are you running away from, why can’t be here right now. A lot of people want to keep, have goals for… They’re self-employed, we work with a lot of coaches, they graduate our program, they want to get clients. And it’s like they want to be already on that momentum. And there’s a place where you’re just starting out and you have to be okay with every step you take. It’s just like going to the gym for the first time. It’s going to feel crappy the first time. You’re not going to do as good and you just want to get there back in the rhythm. But you can’t get there if you just get frustrated right away. And I think that’s what happens with people that are doing personal development. They want to get rid of their karma in a way. They don’t know it, but they want to get rid of their patterns. But in pushing their pattern away or resenting it or hating it or getting frustrated with it, that’s actually… keeps them… it’s like digging a hole deeper and deeper.

Robert Maldonado  19:49

Yeah, so the question of how do we work with that, how do we approach the mind then, comes from… Well, the Upanishads give us the answer. It’s a spoiler alert. But if we look at what is the evidence from science and from psychology, there’s this principle, an operant conditioning that when people are looking at what reinforces behavior… Obviously, money is a reinforcer. People will do a lot of crazy things and a lot of very difficult and repetitive behaviors to get money. Well, they’ll sit in a cubicle for 30 years to get that pension and they get the security of money. But what they notice is that that reinforcer, although it appears to be universal, meaning everyone responds to it, some people have more of an affinity to it than others.

Debra Maldonado  20:59

Some people are very motivated by money and going up and moving up the corporate ladder, brown nosing the boss, and doing things that are maybe that other people wouldn’t do and you know…

Robert Maldonado  21:15

Yeah. So, what that implies then, is that the power of the reinforcer, of the external environment to have an impact on your behavior is really in you, that if you value something… 

Debra Maldonado  21:32

You decide.

Robert Maldonado  21:33

If you value something, if you’re attached to something, if you want something, it has more of a reinforcing impact on you than somebody who might not value that same thing. So, the power is not in the external thing but in our mind.

Debra Maldonado  21:52

Like you said, what we decide is pleasant or unpleasant. When you’re telling, talking about this in the corporate world, – I was in a cubicle, I’m a cubicle survivor, – is that I remember the moment where I really clung. So many times I left… wanted to leave the corporate world, in-between companies, I worked for that went… They were… I was in the .com era, so there was a lot of startups that went up and down. So, I was in-between jobs a lot of times. And then I was always that opportunity to leap and I just never took it. And then I remember thinking to myself, I just want to do what I love. I’m done with going back to this cubicle. And I’ll give up. I had this beautiful townhome and this mountain view and brand new car, and I got to travel, I was zero in debt. And I was just like… I have a very comfortable lifestyle, I didn’t have to worry about money, really. And I said, You know what, I’ll give everything up. I’ll live in a studio apartment in the corner of back room somewhere on a cot, give up my car, drive a beat up old car, just if I could do what I loved. And I remember thinking that. For me, that was I was non-attached to the corporate world anymore. And it didn’t get me hooked anymore. It just was like it didn’t have that hook. And the karma was broken. My corporate karma was broken, my corporate paycheck karma. And I think it’s like an internal decision that you decide, This isn’t for me anymore. And it doesn’t mean you have to quit your job tomorrow but it means that, I’m going to take the steps now, I’m going to use this job right now. I always called it the dream funder. I’m going to make that transition to do what I love. So, those of you who are interested in becoming coaches and training with us, that would be a way to do it. It’s like, I’m going to get my game plan, my exit strategy, that’s going to be more of a reinforcer for me doing what I love versus taking that old action. And so, the old karma will try to pull you back and will throw unexpected bills your way or someone will get sick or something will happen to try to get you back into that hook. And so, you have to continue to be non-attached to that one source of income. Or in that case, that would be that one source.

Robert Maldonado  24:12

So yeah, because from the Eastern perspective the answer is non-attachment in taking the action. Non-attachment not to the action, but to the result.

Debra Maldonado  24:25

Yes.

Robert Maldonado  24:26

In other words, you’re taking the action as a duty, as performing your role in society.

Debra Maldonado  24:33

Doing something I love instead of feeling doing the action for a paycheck.

Robert Maldonado  24:38

Instead of going for the reward more or operating from that principle of, I need to get something from this, that reinforcer. So, a lot of people interpreted that as thinking, Well, if I don’t care about something, that will set me free if I don’t care about getting the results. But that’s not really what the Upanishads were teaching or saying. They were saying you need to continue to take the action. Obviously, as long as you have a body, you’re going to have to take action. The formula is simply that you’re dropping the attachment to the result of the action. And here a lot of people protest because they say, That means I won’t get to enjoy the results of the action. But that’s not so. The results will be there. Because the principle is still operating, any action you take will yield a result. So, the results are still going to be there. All the Upanishads are saying is that it’s the attachment, meaning, remember we…

Debra Maldonado  25:49

The anxiety or the tension around it, or the fear around it.

Robert Maldonado  25:51

Yeah, that internal intention that gave the power to the external to reinforce you. You’re simply nullifying that. It has no power. Now you’re determining what has value for you. You’re not letting that external define what is valuable for you. You’re not giving the power to the external to reinforce you. You’re saying, I can reinforce myself or I can determine what’s valuable for me and what has purpose and meaning for me, without depending on that external reinforcer.

Debra Maldonado  26:31

Well, and just to go back to that point, is that I didn’t say I was ready to have that in order to do what I loved. So, I was ready to give up that corporate, or basically the attachment to a certain consistent paycheck. But it didn’t mean that I didn’t want it or that I didn’t want money, or I didn’t want to… But I was non-attached to getting it from there anymore or feeling that that was the source. And so, I always willing. And so, I was like, Well, if I let go, the fear is, well, what will happen if I stop going to work or I stop caring about getting that paycheck? Or that response like what would happen. And so, I thought of the worst case, and I thought, I’ll be fine. And so, then that gave me the courage to be able to just continue on my path of entrepreneurship. And I really didn’t have to live in a basement apartment or a studio apartment. I lived in a house with a friend and we became roommates for a year, the first year. And then I ended up buying a beautiful condo after that, another one from my works. And I bought another new car. And it’s just almost like we think the karma limits us to think… to create our life because it puts us in a fixed pattern of where everything can come from based on the past – where money can come from, where love can come from, like, I have to be this way in order for someone to love me. Then, we all know that sometimes this doesn’t work. You being the way you are, you know may keep someone around temporarily or keep it like a dysfunctional relationship together, but it isn’t really going to give you the ultimate…

Robert Maldonado  28:21

Yeah, the force of karma is so powerful. You will literally feel compelled to act in a certain way when you’re under the conditioning effect. And you might even have the thought, I don’t want to do this, but you will see your hand actually doing the action. And you’re trying to stop yourself and you you will not be able to. You’re compelled. You’re forced to act out this pattern, this karmic pattern.

Debra Maldonado  28:54

You’re talking about my dating life. Like, don’t call him back, just let it go. And just why do you keep going back? Or tolerating something?

Robert Maldonado  29:03

Yeah, but if you think about more dire consequences, addiction, that’s the power of conditioning. It’s simply that that conditioning has taken over your organism, your system, your body, and it’s compelling you to act in this harmful way. And you cannot free yourself.

Debra Maldonado  29:25

Well, can I talk about another kind of karma? And it doesn’t involve action at all. Well, it kind of does. But the karmic pattern of beating ourselves up and feeling insecure, not believing in ourselves, that is also karma. We’re creating our own karma. Every time we have that, we’re holding that idea that we’re just not good enough and we’re just never going to succeed. That it’s a habit. It’s that habit and then you’re acting and reacting to the world basically on that. And you still think, Well, if those results change, then I can feel good about myself. But we’re still caught up in that. So, I guess, the non-attachment is the key. So, when we see a result, it’s not that we don’t care but we’re looking at it as that result doesn’t define me. And in order to break free, we always say that we have to hold a vision of what we want. And the why has to be bigger than just protecting our ego. It has to be something that has a higher meaning to us than just making us feel good about ourselves or proving something to people.

Robert Maldonado  30:40

That’s a good point. Because a lot of people ask, Well, then why would I act if I’m not acting to get the result? And so, you have to find that meaningful action or the reason that you’re acting, not simply to get the results. If we continuously act simply to get the results, then we get caught up in karma. We’re conditioned by our experiences, our actions, our environment. And the consequences are very real. And we’re talking about what kind of relationships you create in your life…

Debra Maldonado  31:19

How much money comes into your life…

Robert Maldonado  31:21

How much money, what kind of career you do, what your health is, because your relationship to food, to pleasure, to those kinds of activities, and also your health and addiction, like I was saying. If you drink alcohol or you’re prone to drugs, that conditioning power will be there.

Debra Maldonado  31:44

Or working out can be an addiction as well

Robert Maldonado  31:46

And it shapes our lives in every conceivable way. So, to understand these principles is really important. And it gives us the key to our freedom because if we understand that, Okay, if I simply am able to drop the attachment to the results, not…

Debra Maldonado  32:07

To the action.

Robert Maldonado  32:08

Not to the action, but to the results of the action, I am completely freed from that conditioning power.

Debra Maldonado  32:15

And then imagine the action that you take isn’t about, Oh, I hope I make money from this, or I hope I get a date from this. It’s more, I’m being nice, I’m putting myself out there, I’m moving towards something that I love and that I’m passionate about. And the action is the reward itself. And if you’re going to pursue anything, whether it’s love, work, weight, you’re going to have failures. So, if you’re not working with non-attachment, it’s going to be a miserable journey. It’s going to be a miserable journey. Can I just say something about this idea of what’s the difference between non-attachment and not caring? Because, I think, what happens is that people don’t have that healthy balance of having a higher vision of what they’re doing. And they’re attached to the result so they get really caught up in that attachment, attachment, attachment. And then it gets to the point where it’s just like they exhaust themselves. They’re spinning, spinning, spinning, keep getting the wrong result. And then they fall back. And they’re like, I give up. And then they go to this rush, rush, rush. Frustration. Give up. Rush, rush, rush. Frustration. And give up. And they think their giving up is like, I’m giving it up to the universe, or I’m letting it go. And then they don’t realize that they’re actually creating more karma by saying, I’m giving it up, because they’re really saying, I can’t get what I want. So, it’s that both of those, giving up and trying too hard, are this false idea that it’s really hard to get things. I don’t have any power, I have to do something to get a result, where everything is really determined by your attitude in the action itself.

Robert Maldonado  33:54

That is the biggest lesson of the Upanishads, that you have control over this principle of karma. It’s simply that when you give the power to the external, you’re relinquishing your power. You’re saying, No, the results has much more power than my mind and my intention than what I’m able to hold in my mind. And that’s a misperception. And that’s a big error because then you’re letting the circumstances of your life determine the rest of your destiny, basically.

Debra Maldonado  34:30

And you can hear this lecture on karma over and over again. And it’s so hard because it goes against the grain of how we’re conditioned in life. We always want rewards. We want to get rewarded for things we do and we want to feel good. Our ego wants us to move toward pleasure and away from pain. It’s just always going to do that by default. And so, that’s why individuation is so important and the Jungian coaching that we teach is because you can’t just rearrange the furniture, and just, I’m going to create a better action. And I’m going to get into better habits. And I’m going to think more positive. And I’m going to maybe try just non-attachment. But the bigger picture is non-attachment is the tool. But to truly be non-attached is you have to individuate. You have to basically become who you really are, your true self, like we talked about last week.

Robert Maldonado  35:27

Yeah, that’s a good point. Because when we operate from the sense of ego, that sense of I, – I want, and I need, – then we’re always, we’re always attached to the results of our actions. And then that attachment itself reinforces that I, that I want to survive, I want something – I want money, I want food, sex, and all that good stuff, – when we can have all those things. This is the main point, that it doesn’t mean we have to renounce the world. On the contrary, it’s we’re able to really enjoy it, and to really use it in an appropriate way where it serves us, instead of us serving it.

Debra Maldonado  36:15

Just like money, right? The idea that money can… You need the money for security, but actually, money is a tool. And so, it’s not bad. It’s not good or bad. It’s just how we use it. We can use it to, if you’re a coach, have more advertising, reach more people, change more lives, inspire others to do what they love. If I couldn’t make a living out of doing what I love, then I wouldn’t be able to inspire you right now to make a living doing what you love. We would all still be in our cubicles. So, it’s almost like we have to come up with what’s the bigger, bigger why of why we would want to change our life. And with love it’s not just, I’m not going to be lonely anymore, or I want to fit in with my family or I want to have a baby. All those things are nice but what’s the real real payoff, from your spiritual sense, of having a relationship? And it’s really knowing who you are, being more in touch with your spiritual self, having a soulful experience with another human being. Something like that is a little beyond just survival. And I think that’s really the state and the attitude that we have to take. So, we’re not all going to do individuation in a week here or in one session.

Robert Maldonado  37:32

It might take two weeks.

Debra Maldonado  37:33

Might take two weeks. But one of the things that will really help you is just think about, right now, what are the results you’re getting in your life? Those are results of your karma. That’s your karma. You are the cause, whether you’re conscious of it or not. So, most of the causes are unconscious. And it’s not a belief system that you have to get rid of, like you have to believe you’re good enough and all those things. It’s more like what’s the attitude toward this goal that you have? Is it the attitude about survival? Do you have a frustration in the things you’re doing? And it’s very little to do with the action as much as the attitude. You do need to take action, though. Do you want to talk about that real quick before we end? Just the value of action?

Robert Maldonado  38:22

Yeah, I think it’s part of the deal. If you want to continue to exist in the body, you have to take action.

Debra Maldonado  38:31

And have the material things that you want out here.

Robert Maldonado  38:34

Yeah, you cannot take action off the table as long as you’re alive. Everything. It’s almost a definition of life that it moves. We’re compelled to take action. So, the question is simply, what are you going to do? In dealing with that action, in relating to it? Like you say, what is the mental attitude that I have towards that action? Am I using it to get something external, that appears to be external to me? Or am I understanding the right principle that my mind is causing the result in my life? And if my mind is the cause, I have the power to reshape my destiny, not the other way around. If you’re leaving it up to the external environment, you’re going to go on a roller coaster ride that’s not going to be very pleasant.

Debra Maldonado  39:30

And if you think about just even Facebook, or social media, it’s all based on this principle of karma. Even literally, they’re following you around based on your past, what you liked, what triggers you. But think about this, how you respond to when someone likes your post? Or when someone criticizes your post? Or if you get enough friends? That kind of like needing that social acknowledgement also drives behavior. So, we have to look at our everyday life and everything we do and how much is it really based on free… our mind is free to choose versus a compulsion to act in a certain way? And individuation is the best way to really free yourself of past karma because you actually become someone else.

Robert Maldonado  40:26

It’s the most direct path, I would say. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado  40:30

But the first step for someone is just to look at your attitude toward what you have, how you’re… if you’re frustrated, if you’re hopeful, if you’re taking action, or you’re just waiting around, waiting for something to happen. There’s a lot of different attitudes you can have. And the results will always show you and reflect back that attitude. If you’re not sure of the attitude you’re putting into the action, look at your attitude toward the result. And that will reflect. It matches. It’s like, like attracts like. And so, what is within is without. And the last part is that attitude can’t be an attitude of lack or deficit, – that I don’t have anything, I don’t have love, or I don’t have money, or I don’t have a healthy body, and have to go out and act to get it. It’s we’re acting as if we have it. We already are that person that has that success, has that beautiful body, that person that already has that love. And imagine that attitude going out there. It’s almost like the results, if it doesn’t show up, you’re like, But that doesn’t match who I am. And that result will start to change. But initially, you’ll get the result that matches the pattern. And you have to hold that mind. It’s practice. It’s not as easy as you think. It’s not like, visualize it and it’s going to happen.

Robert Maldonado  41:54

Yeah. But we might have to do a separate one for visualization.

Debra Maldonado  41:58

Yeah, yeah. But again, your attitude creates the results more than anything else. So, thank you all for joining us and have a great weekend! And we’ll see you next week, where we’re going to talk about Dharma and living your purpose.

Robert Maldonado  42:14

Yeah. 

Debra Maldonado  42:15

Take care!

Robert Maldonado  42:16

See you next week! Take care! 

Debra Maldonado  42:17

Bye bye!

OUTRO  42:18

Thank you for joining us. And don’t forget to subscribe to Creative Mind Soul Sessions. And join us next week as we explore another deep topic where you can consciously create your life with Creative Mind Soul Session. See you next time.