Satya Leaders Series: Why Leaders Need a Strong Ego

Debra Maldonado  02:18

Do I run and kiss that girl, but I have to hold myself back, so I’ll ask her to dance.

Robert Maldonado  02:25

That was a good compromise. For the ego, it’s like those cartoons with the little devil on the shoulder. In between was the ego trying to compromise between the two. Jung saw it differently though. He said the ego is like the center of our awareness, the center of our conscious mind, it’s more like the regulator, the center that holds everything in place, it gives you a sense of I.

Debra Maldonado  03:01

I think, maybe Freud agreed with him, that it’s really driven by survival, both physically and socially.

Robert Maldonado  03:09

The primary functions of ego from the Jungian perspective are to make sure you survive physically and then make sure you fit in socially. Very similar to Freud’s idea of the superego, which is the moral code of society, we have to fit in. You’ll notice if you pay attention to your own mind, it’s always checking to see how others are perceiving you, how others are seeing you, what they’re thinking about you. That’s ego function. There’s nothing wrong with it, we need that. It’s a good resource to have. Jung would say that the only problem is that we start to identify with that sense of self as ego. It becomes the part of our psyche that runs the whole show. It’s very limiting in that regard.

Debra Maldonado  04:12

When we talk about the ego, why we need it, it actually started early in life. We have this sense that we are separate from other people. I don’t know what age or stage in childhood the baby realizes that they are separate from the mother, they’re not one unit like they were in the womb. Do you know the age?

Robert Maldonado  04:32

There’s some thoughts on this, but a year and a half, you start to see children wander away from the mother and explore the world.

Debra Maldonado  04:41

It gives us a sense of individuality, which is different from individuation, we’ll talk about that. Individuality means I’m my own person, I am separate from the world. Then we have to learn how to navigate this world. That’s me and them, out there, how do we survive not only physically, what is safe to be around, who are safe to be around, but then also when we go to school and learn how to socialize with other people, how do you act? Who am I, how do I define? When I was growing up, I was the smart one, I was always the nerdy girl, I got that label because smart equals nerdy, then it became my identity, I couldn’t see myself out of it. Then the ego creates all these strategies based on that conditioning of the early life to function in the world. Then we think we are patterns, our patterns are who we are. Even things that happen to us are who we are. If we had a trauma, or we had a tough divorce in our family, we had to move, we think “I’m this damaged, little child still.” That’s what the ego tries to carry out in that story, that’s where it can be limiting.

Robert Maldonado  06:05

It does it for a good reason. If we think from evolutionary psychology, if you don’t have a good, strong ego, you’re not going to survive. First of all, you have to look out for yourself, for number one. If you don’t do that, the tiger is going to eat you pretty quickly, the story is over. It serves us tremendously. But again, we’re not meant to stay there. Jung and other spiritual traditions say it’s not the place where we need to dwell. A lot of us get stuck there because we don’t see any other options. We say “What else is there? All I can experience is myself, my desires, my family, the things around me.”

Debra Maldonado  07:03

Even my past history and that narrative defines me. But you said something earlier that I thought was so critical that I didn’t learn until I met you. It’s the concept of a strong ego. We do need a strong ego. I read a lot of the Eastern philosophy, the ego’s not just to get rid of. You’re not the ego. It’s not as simple as that. I’ve noticed over the 20 years of us working with people that there seems to be a prerequisite to do individuation or do shadow work, which is to have a strong ego. Let’s talk about what that is so people can recognize it, maybe the people around you. When we talk about individuality, one of the hallmarks of a weak ego is someone who’s just a chameleon, they just follow the crowd, they do not have any individuality, their opinions are easily shifted based on the environment, they don’t have that stubbornness in a way. They’re flexible, almost too flexible. Would you say that is one of the qualities?

Robert Maldonado  08:17

Absolutely, but we don’t want people to self-diagnose. Essentially, we all have those qualities. It’s more like a spectrum. In certain circumstances, if we’re threatened by other individuals, we may feel that way. Even if we’re powerful, strong, and intelligent, we might feel like “I don’t belong, I don’t have enough to contend with these people, they’re more powerful than me” or something like that.

Debra Maldonado  08:47

But if it’s consistent, where they feel like those lost individuals. In leadership, one of the main problems I know I had to work on is building my ego around being a leader and the concept of being a leader. I’d tend to want to please everyone on the team and make sure everyone’s happy, being a chameleon. Sometimes hiring consultants and just following what they say, even though inside I know this isn’t right. What you’re saying is like a spectrum, sometimes we can fall into that pattern or behavior of following other people. Even in the coaching industry, there’s all these things you should do, and everyone’s following the same formula. If there’s no individuality there, that’s what we’re talking about here. Not a diagnosis where there’s something wrong, but it’s also to be aware of the spectrum that’s happening inside of us. Are we making our own decisions or are we just following the crowd?

Robert Maldonado  09:55

It’d be very much like in the arts. You have to learn the rules first if you’re a writer, an artist, a filmmaker, anything artistic or creative, or in business as well, you have to learn the rules first in order for you to break them, to let them go and be really creative. You need that first element. That’s the ego. We need to master our ego first, establish ourselves as a person, a persona, an individual, so that then we’re able to transcend it.

Debra Maldonado  10:35

That’s what I was saying. You have to build it first before you can let it go. If you’re like a chameleon, it’s hard. What are you letting go of? Because it’s so mushy and undefined. If you have an undefined ego, that’s the whole idea of “I don’t know who I am”, where you are led all the time — I’m talking about the extreme, obviously — but if you find yourself like that, how can you transcend what you can’t define?

Robert Maldonado  11:09

Boundaries are so essential in human interaction. If you don’t have proper boundaries, you can’t really get along in society and work with other people.

Debra Maldonado  11:20

Would that be a sign of a strong ego?

Robert Maldonado  11:27

If you’re able to establish strong clear boundaries for the limits of how people can interact with you and where the limits are, that’s a good way to be because it helps people relax around you. They know who you are and how far they can take it with you. When you’re not clear on your boundaries and don’t know how to set proper boundaries, then people are anxious around you, because they’re not sure how to treat you, how to react to you, or how to interact with you.

Debra Maldonado  12:00

A good example is if you work in a partnership with someone, whether it’s a spouse or someone else you’re in partnership with, if one person is just going with “you’re the person that knows it all, I’m going by this, following you,” then there’s resentment as to not getting what you want in that partnership, whether it’s a relationship or business relationship, collaborations. A lot of leaders do collaborative deals with people. If you’re unable to keep boundaries and know what you want, it’s this idea that you know what you want, you’re firm on that, you’re certain on that versus “I’ll just let them lead.” You’re letting other people lead, you’re not really leading in your own life. That’s why I love this topic. We don’t want to be this high-level spiritual person as a leader without having a strong ego because they go hand in hand. It’s a stage you have to go through to get to the next level.

Robert Maldonado  13:01

We can disagree. Let’s talk about transcending the ego, because that’s where you’re going. The idea of spirituality often centers around the idea of an individual being able to transcend their ego, to let go of their persona and their social status. Many traditions have this idea that as you enter into a spiritual life, you become someone else, you drop the old persona and the old ego and you become someone else. Something else is taking the place of that dynamic of the psyche, where the ego is the center. Now this divine element, the spiritual element is the center of your life.

Debra Maldonado  14:00

Here’s my counter to that. This comes from Jung himself. He said that we need to build the individual ego identity because it prepares us to connect with the Divine on a soul level. If we don’t pass through this developing our individual self as a human being, as an ego, it’s hard to then have a really powerful spiritual experience from the soul because we’re learning I have an individual experience and a universal experience as well. That’s what the ego development early in life prepares us to do. If we’re spiritual beings, let’s say there’s this whole plan for us to be liberated from the ego, why would we get one in the first place? That’s what he said. It serves that purpose to have a place to put something personal to relate to something universal.

Robert Maldonado  15:03

That makes sense. What happens in spiritual work is that the ego become subservient to the higher purpose, the divine element in the psyche. The ego is still there. It’s not pushed, it’s not destroyed or gotten rid of as some people talk about getting rid of the ego. It’s putting it in the right context, it’s part of your human body, your mind body, your mind body needs it. If you’re walking down the street and see a big truck coming your way, it’s going to help you get out of the way automatically, without you thinking about it. It’s a useful function, as well as the persona, the presentation of the ego in the external social circumstances. If it’s under the direction or under the service of the divine spiritual element, it serves as that function, it helps you communicate your spiritual aspirations to the community in a viable way.

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Debra Maldonado  17:42 

The ego building gives us an initial sense of a self. Then we’re prepared to step into a larger version of ourselves. How does this play out in leadership? People that are entrepreneurs have teams. Are they making collaborative decisions? For me, negotiating contracts, hiring consultants, trusting the advice I’m getting from mentors, how do we balance that? Does a strong ego come to play in that realm?

Robert Maldonado  18:21

Ideally, if a leader is really using higher principles to develop their work, the ego is playing a role, but it’s not the primary role.

Debra Maldonado  18:37

Could you describe higher principles for people that don’t know what that means?

Robert Maldonado  18:40

The ordinary principles of business are fairly simple. You can find them anywhere in any business book.

Debra Maldonado  18:50

Revenue, cash flow, expenses, demand.

Robert Maldonado  18:54

Those are good, those are knowledge, those are the tools of the trade, like a surgeon needing scalpels and scissors. The higher principles are the surgeon’s understanding of her craft, the mastery of her mind and the skills in her hands that she’s able to apply to perform with the tools the incredible surgery.

Debra Maldonado  19:29

Using her body, using her past experience and the knowledge that she gained.

Robert Maldonado  19:36

Those are principles of anatomy, physiology, medicine, of course, all this incredible higher knowledge that is in medicine, the same principles are in business. What are the higher principles in business? It’s the ability to understand that you’re helping the world and that there are ways to use money as a tool, not as an end in itself.

Debra Maldonado  20:03

Money to build your ego. I’m sure many people have seen Instagram videos of people with their jets and their rented houses to appear they have all this money. Then there’s a lot of people that are just mesmerized by that, they want to be successful. Again, there’s nothing wrong with that, you could do that. But if that’s the end, where are you going to take that when you go? What is that about? That actually creates a lot of suffering, if your identity or your ego is defined by those things. You’re saying the higher principle is seeing more of a higher purpose to what you’re doing versus just looking at the bottom line. I’d say that in a lot of corporations, there’s no higher intelligence running it, it’s very much mechanic, industrial. It’s all about spitting people out, getting the best out of most of the employees and firing people without realizing they have personal lives and their struggles, they’re trying to support their family. They just lay off people, it has that unconscious disregard for the heart and soul of the people, even what they’re selling. As entrepreneurs, especially small business entrepreneurs, we are different, we actually started because we wanted to make a difference. Most of us didn’t want to do this to get rich. We’re already on a higher plane, it’s just that sometimes we can get caught up in it, especially when you start making a lot of money, you can start getting caught up in it. It’s a spiritual practice to remember why you’re doing it in the first place.

Robert Maldonado  21:58

The higher principles serve as that invisible element that you’re following and studying instead of going from the evidence of the senses, just observing what the bottom line is and how many widgets you’re selling. Again, it’s important to keep your eye on those things. But the higher principles give you a sense of why you’re doing this, it’s your why, it’s your higher purpose.

Debra Maldonado  22:30

Early in my career, one of the coaches, we had an event, she said “How many buying units did you have in the room?” I’m like “Buying units? That sounds so cold.” I was like “These are souls that want to be transformed.”  Not thinking of it as transactional. As business owners, we do need to balance it, we can’t go “I just want to save the world and not charge any money and not make any money, just live off my mother’s cellar,” or whatever, I don’t know how people make money, if they’re not making money, how they sustain themselves. But how important it is to have that financial stability and be able to create more from a place of giving, of changing the world, of something higher than themselves.

Robert Maldonado  23:27

We’ll be talking more about that in the series. But the question was: do leaders need a strong ego? It’s yes and no. If we see it from the perspective of the ego having its role, then there’s nothing wrong with having a strong ego because it’s going to help you do your work. But it shouldn’t be the primary driver. Because the ego’d be the one that would be interested in augmenting itself through wealth and money.

Debra Maldonado  24:06

The downside of that is it’s all great when things are going great. But when you have a setback, when someone quits, a key team member quits, people are disagreeing, it can get really hard. Then your identity is tied to that business, as your business is you, especially entrepreneurs, because it’s usually very personal, we’re so close to our company and what we do, it’s an extension of ourselves. It could be in a spiritual sense, but if we make it a survival, if my business is down, I’m down, if my business is up, I’m up. I’m successful, I’m a failure, it’s just exhausting. A lot of people overwork because they’re still chasing that carrot of self-acceptance, acknowledgement, love from early in life through their business, that is what causes a lot of stress, that’s when the ego is really running your decisions. You feel like you can’t stop, you can’t relax, because the money’s gonna stop coming in if you just take a day off.

Robert Maldonado  25:20

That’s when the ego’s really in control. You see this side effect of frustration, burnout people talk about because it’s exhausting to uphold the ego all the time and to feed it. It’ll never be satisfied, it’s never enough, therefore, you’re always on this treadmill.

Debra Maldonado  25:46

We always say it’s not black and white. That’s the thing about Jung’s work, it’s not a quick concept of “okay, no ego” or “either my true self or the ego”. It’s not so broken down in such a defined role. It’s a spectrum. There’s parts of your life where you do have a strong ego, where maybe you have a strong ego in your business, but in your relationships you’re like a puddle with your partner, you feel like you have lost all your power. I’ve seen this so many times, working with entrepreneurs, they have a strong confidence in one area of their life and in another area of life they don’t. Or you see men that are all powerful at work, then they go home to their wife, and the wife’s yelling at them, and they’re like “Okay, dear”, they’re not the same person at home. There’s always places for us to improve upon and see where we’re not standing in our individuality. But also, it’s a balance of the strong ego and our true self, just watching it. It’s important, but you don’t want to overly rely on the ego, or you’re going to end up stressed out and burnt out.

Robert Maldonado  27:16

But also the other side of the coin, in combination and in balance, this is a powerful combination where you have higher principles directing the ego to do its work in a proper way. Then you have successful companies and entrepreneurs that really change the world and change the game of their industry.

Debra Maldonado  27:38

You can look at your bank account and say there’s a million dollars in the bank account. Then the ego will say “Look how great I am. Look how much I’ve accomplished.” That’s a slippery slope if that money goes away. But if you’re looking at that million dollars from a higher purpose, you’d say “I have more resources to reach more people. Look how many people I’ve helped. I’m a success in helping transformations, I’m a success in helping bring my product out to the world that has affected so many people, improved so many lives.” You want to have some meaning behind what we do and a reason for it versus “I want to have this number or this title of millionaire on my Instagram account”, multimillionaire or whatever people do now. That’s really the balance. The money and the success serve the higher purpose, not the other way around. Let’s wrap it up. We defined the ego is something that Freud and Jung had a slight disagreement on. Jung saw the ego as a necessary part of our development. But at midlife, we want to individuate from it. We also talked about how people that don’t have strong egos can be more like chameleons and out of their power and the need to build it up a little bit so you can be an effective leader. In the last part, we talked about how we need to balance it out, we need the higher purpose, we need the higher knowledge, the higher principles. If we’re just operating from ego, we will suffer as a business owner, we will suffer as a leader because we can’t ever be happy just living from ego. Think about your life. Think about something in your life where you feel you don’t have a strong enough ego in and how you can create boundaries or how you can redefine who you are. Maybe start thinking: Who am I in this marriage? Who am I in this relationship? Who am I in this friendship, in this family? Start to think about that. But also if it’s in leadership and running a company: I want to know who I am and what’s acceptable to me, what’s not acceptable, what decisions I want to make. The last part is trying to absorb the higher knowledge. What would be a good first book for someone to read who’s never read Eastern philosophy? What do you think?

Robert Maldonado  30:20

The Bhagavad Gita.

Debra Maldonado  30:21

That’s what I was thinking too, the Bhagavad Gita. There’s a great translation by Eknath Easwaran. I’m really butchering his name, but we’ll put the book in the show notes. It’s a really great beginner’s guide to Eastern philosophy, non-attachment, understanding life beyond the ego, serving your company, your employees, your team members, everyone you interact with, your clients and customers with the higher purpose. They will feel it, it actually will help you become more abundant and more successful. We will see you next week on our next episode. Thank you for joining us and have a wonderful day.

Robert Maldonado  31:02

See you next time.

OUTRO  31:05

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