Beyond Self-Actualization: Maslow, Jung and Transcendence

Episode Transcript

Beyond Self-Actualization: Maslow, Jung, and the Path to Self-Transcendence

Jung on Purpose with Debra Maldonado and Dr. Rob Maldonado

In the final episode of our series on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, we look at the anxiety so many people feel about the state of the world, and why the answer may begin with inner work. We explore how Maslow’s later idea of self-transcendence connects to Jung’s individuation and to the non-dual wisdom of Advaita Vedanta, and what that means for anyone who wants to make a real difference.

Debra: Hello everyone, welcome back to Jung on Purpose. I’m Debra Maldonado.

Dr. Rob: I’m Dr. Rob. Welcome to the program.

Debra: Today we’re finishing our series on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and how it relates to Jungian psychology and Eastern spirituality. And we’re going to bring it into what’s happening in the world right now, because people are really struggling.

I want to share a statistic, Rob: about 48% of US adults say they feel more anxious about world events and economic conditions than they did the year before. That’s almost half of us.

And here’s a question to consider. When we’re frightened or divided, do we examine our own fears, or do we simply blame the other side?

There’s so much conflict in politics, especially in the US, and I’m sure in other countries too. There’s uncertainty, war, catastrophes happening around the globe. Ordinary people are feeling it, and we see it with our clients. They ask, “What can I do to help the world?” Even the idea of an AI apocalypse has people worried. We really need to give people something they can use with their minds to come to terms with all this chaos and be better able to contribute.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely. All of these challenges for the human race seem to be converging in one short period of time. We’ve never had eight billion people on the planet facing something like this together. But regardless of the era, it’s always been challenging to be human, to be a good and conscious human being, and to do your part in what’s happening historically.

Revisiting Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

Dr. Rob: Let’s review Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, because it helps us understand how people are reacting to these challenges. If you’ve gone through a disaster recently, you have to start at the bottom rung. You need to make sure you and your family have your physiological needs met: water, food, shelter. Physiological and safety needs come first.

Debra: And it doesn’t have to be a disaster. Some people lose their jobs, or money gets tighter because gas prices are high. We don’t need a huge catastrophe to be pushed down into survival mode.

Dr. Rob: True. We can fall into those mental states psychologically even when the physical conditions aren’t there. But there are also many people right now who truly don’t have clean water, safe food, or shelter. It’s a serious situation, and we all need to be aware of it.

The next layers of the hierarchy are the social and esteem needs, which come after the physiological and safety needs are met.

Debra: So that’s the need for love and belonging, and the need for esteem: success in the world, creating something with your life, being acknowledged by society.

Dr. Rob: Right. In practical terms, it’s questions like: Do I have a job? Do I have a community that supports me? Is my city okay? Millions, maybe billions, of people are living at that level, putting their energy into maintaining and achieving those things. They’re not thinking about self-actualization. They don’t have the time or energy, because their needs for love, belonging, and esteem haven’t been fully met, or those needs feel precarious.

Debra: Wouldn’t you also say there are people who have met those needs and simply stop there? Think of some of the billionaires of the world, people whose lives are very materialistic. They’ve met those needs and don’t see any reason to go further. It’s the “as long as there’s more for me, I’m fine” mentality. So there are two sides of the same coin at that level.

Dr. Rob: Yes, and that points to a missing element, which Maslow addresses later, as we’ll see. What you see there is the ego function dominating a person’s life. They believe the material world is all there is, so once they reach these social needs, they think all they can do is accumulate more wealth, more possessions, more power. They get stuck there and never move into self-actualization.

Debra: I’d add another example. Not today, because women have come a long way, but think back 60 or 70 years. For many women, love and belonging was the top of the ladder. They weren’t encouraged to have careers. Most stayed home with their children, and family life was the whole picture: I have my family, my household, my security, and there’s no need to go out and make something in the world.

My grandmother, though, had 12 children, and when she was in her 40s she started wanting to give back to her community. So would that be the esteem level? Feeling that you can do something, that you can help others?

What Self-Actualization Really Means

Dr. Rob: Absolutely. At the higher end of that level, you’re moving toward self-actualization, where you’re really giving of yourself, developing your skills to their fullest, and contributing to your community. That’s pretty high up.

What Maslow meant by self-actualization is the level after the social layers of the hierarchy. It’s the feeling that you’ve truly developed your talents and skills to their utmost, or at least to a level where you feel accomplished. There’s always more work to do, but you’re doing it from that place of self-development.

Debra: So how would you describe self-actualization in Maslow’s terms?

Dr. Rob: It’s the peak of self-development. In the 1960s there was a self-development movement in the US, and its aim was exactly that: helping the individual express their full capacity as a person and a citizen.

Debra: Reaching goals, the motivation type of thing.

Dr. Rob: Exactly. And by fulfilling their own potential, they help society too, because they’ve achieved the ultimate expression of their talents and skills.

Debra: So self-actualization sounds spiritual, but it’s really about accomplishing something in your life. Is it for you or for others?

Dr. Rob: It’s still about you.

Debra: Okay. So “I won that Oscar,” or “I wrote that screenplay,” or “I became an Olympian.” That’s self-actualization. And you need esteem to get there, don’t you? You need some confidence in your abilities.

Dr. Rob: That’s right. And you need social support. Nobody does their best on their own. You need the stage that society, companies, and institutions provide. Maslow saw self-actualization as one of the top rungs because it also gives back. If a society supports great individuals in developing their talents, those individuals contribute back, so it benefits everyone to cultivate them.

Debra: And on a basic level, that gives your life meaning, the sense that you’re contributing to the world.

Dr. Rob: Absolutely. The people you love and your society applaud, support, and admire you for it, so your esteem needs and sense of accomplishment are being met at the same time. It works well for both the individual and society.

The Level Most People Don’t Know About: Self-Transcendence

Debra: But would this still be ego-based?

Dr. Rob: Here’s something a lot of people don’t know. After Maslow published his hierarchy of needs and it became popular, he introduced the idea of self-transcendence, a need for self-transcendence. That’s closer to what we call spirituality: being connected to something beyond yourself.

Beyond the glory of achieving your goals and contributing to society, what’s beyond that? It’s something larger. If you stay at the self-actualization level, you’re still in ego. As Jung would say, you’re still identifying with your persona, your ego, your small self.

Debra: And isn’t there a yearning inside us? The Self, our true self, wants to be realized. So even if you reach the top rung of self-actualization (now the second-highest rung), you won’t feel fully satisfied. I speak with so many people who have great financial success, or everything anyone could want. Celebrities have fame. Yet they feel something is missing, and that’s the calling to the next level.

Dr. Rob: Yes. Doing things for yourself is satisfying up to a point, but it hits a roadblock, because the persona is not the ultimate stage of human development. That’s the Jungian perspective. There’s a higher level, which Jung called individuation. Maslow went along with this idea through self-transcendence: you have to connect to something larger than yourself, and in a sense, lose your ego self.

Anxiety, Projection, and the World’s Problems

Debra: You lose your personal identity and connect to your spiritual identity.

When most people deal with the problems of the world, it’s very ego-based. And by ego, I don’t mean loving yourself. I mean self-preservation. So if you have anxiety about the world, ask yourself: What is this fear really about? We do care about other people and the world, but there’s also a part of us asking, “What does this mean for me?” The ego is still hooked in.

And when we try to create change through hate or by pushing something away, we only create more of it: more division, more aggression, more anger. I think that’s where most people get deflated. Until you take care of your own experience of this chaos and get clear on what it’s pulling from you, you can’t truly help others. It will feel like you are, but the ego will use its old survival tricks, reaching for lower emotions like anger and hate to make things happen.

Almost everyone I talk to who cares deeply about the world doesn’t like feeling angry. They don’t like how it makes them feel. That’s part of the work with Jung. How do I become more whole? How do I look at the parts of myself, from my ego and personal experience, that are keeping me from seeing clearly what I can do to change the world?

Changing things by hating the other side won’t solve anything. It just makes you miserable. And it isn’t effective, because two sides can’t come together if they’re both hating each other. So with Maslow, it’s about becoming something. Jung asks a different question.

Dr. Rob: Yes. Jung asks: What do we have to face in ourselves that we haven’t faced yet? By facing it, we perceive the world and others differently. We change internally by integrating what he called the shadow, our personal shadow. The shadow is essentially what we project onto others as bad. So in any rivalry, people are projecting their own shadow onto the other person or group, and they’re really fighting against themselves. You can never win that fight, because it’s you.

Debra: And if you’re fighting with people on social media, the algorithm loves the anxiety and anger. It’s designed to keep you hooked. Anger can actually become addictive. There’s brain research suggesting anger gives people a kind of rush, and you don’t realize it’s becoming almost an addiction. People get pulled into online arguments, completely in ego, completely projecting.

When we examine our shadow, we can ask, “Why am I triggered by this person?” That’s the real question. Not “That person is bad, I’m going to unfriend them, they’re an idiot.” Instead: “What is this pulling from me?” That’s the question Jung would have us ask.

Why Success Isn’t the Same as Inner Development

Dr. Rob: And unfortunately, many of those we call our leaders today, worldwide, not only politically but socially, the CEOs of big companies and others society admires, are operating from ego.

Debra: The companies run the world.

Dr. Rob: This is where it gets confusing, because there’s nothing wrong with ego. As Maslow’s hierarchy shows, we want to develop our ego and accomplish what we’re capable of. But many people don’t have the tools or understanding to see there’s a level beyond achieving for yourself. If you stay at that level, you’re still operating from a self-focused perspective. You may be doing good things, contributing to society, creating new things, but you’re still driven by the need for esteem and acknowledgment from others.

Debra: And belonging.

Dr. Rob: Yes. And once that wheel starts spinning, and this is universal, we’re not saying these individuals are bad, because that would be projecting our own shadow, a person at that level operates from greed. All they can see is accumulating more. All the power in the world isn’t enough. All the money in the world isn’t enough. It never ends, because it’s a bottomless pit. It’s a need that can’t be satisfied externally. It can only be satisfied through transcendence. Most of our leaders haven’t done their inner work, and if we hold them up as leaders, they drive culture, society, and politics in that selfish direction.

Debra: It’s amazing how people assume that because you’re successful externally, you must have developed internally. When I first started coaching, there was an idea in the coaching world that spiritual people who made a lot of money must be enlightened. You must have found the secret, or have a special vibration. Remember that, 20 years ago?

A lot of those people were still caught up in their ego. Maybe they were doing good in the world and making great money, but were they evolving past self-actualization? Were they transcending themselves? We’ve seen many famous leaders in the spiritual community fall into controversy, because you can talk about transcending the ego without actually doing it.

That’s why, in our work, we’re not only teaching Jungian psychology or basic psychological principles. We include Eastern philosophy and non-dual philosophy, and that’s where the next level comes in.

Advaita Vedanta and the True Self

Dr. Rob: Yes, because you need a place to transcend to. Without at least a philosophy to move toward, there appears to be nothing beyond the accumulation of power and wealth. That seems like the ultimate humans can do, so people get stuck.

The transcendent need is described by Advaita Vedanta, meaning non-dual Vedanta. Vedanta simply means the wisdom of the Upanishads, the ancient teachings that explain the true nature of our mind and of reality.

That philosophy tells us our individual self is important. It’s like the chariot we drive through life: our mind, our body, our individuality, our intelligence. Nothing is wrong with any of these. But they are not the aim of life. The aim is to realize the Self. And the Self is pure consciousness, and you are that pure consciousness.

It’s a very different level of existence. You’re not renouncing or rejecting the material world. You’re understanding that there’s a deeper essence in you, and that essence, the true Self, can’t be damaged, hurt, or tainted by your human experience.

That gives you a kind of superpower we might call spirituality, enlightenment, or transcendence, because you can continue in the world and do your work. And if you’re a leader, that’s excellent, because you can influence people spiritually. Not by preaching or telling them they should be spiritual, but by example, by making enlightened decisions, because you’re operating from wisdom.

When we over-identify with our individuality, as we do when we reach self-actualization and think that’s all there is, we forfeit our wisdom, our strength, our ability to withstand the ups and downs of life, and our ability to make wise decisions.

The Boat and the Ocean: A Metaphor

Debra: Can I offer a metaphor? This is such a high concept that I want to bring it down to earth.

Imagine you’re on a tiny sailboat on top of a giant ocean. The boat is your body, and the little person on it is your mind, pulling the ropes, adjusting the sails, navigating life. Storms come. Currents pull you. The outer world leads you in one direction or another. We feel we have a little control: we can adjust the sails, lower them when it’s too windy, change direction. But there’s an underlying current we don’t control. Still, we feel a sense of agency, and we’ve created things.

The ocean is who we really are. We are pure consciousness. Think of an ocean of consciousness, not as a material thing, and not even as energy, because energy is still material. It’s a formless substance that pervades everything. It’s inside everything we are and do. It’s the primal substance that makes up everything, including our bodies. Our very life force comes from it.

When we’re at the self-actualization stage, we can only go so far on that boat. And we’re constantly afraid of losing what we’ve built. What if my company fails? What if my relationship falls apart? What if AI takes over? This is why we’re so anxious. We’re all adjusting our sails, maybe shooting arrows at others who seem to be in our way, all of us floating on the surface.

But if we remember that we are the ocean, that we are pure consciousness and not limited to that little boat or that little mind, we discover a greater presence within us. No matter what happens on the surface, we can’t be destroyed. The real us is infinite. As the Bhagavad Gita teaches, the Self cannot be burned, harmed, or destroyed.

Imagine coming to terms with that. Whatever you’ve accomplished, you become less attached to it. Your identity isn’t hooked into it anymore, because you’ve shifted from the little ego that created all these things to your true Self, pure consciousness. There’s nowhere to fall. If your outer life crumbles, you’re still pure consciousness. There’s nothing to fear.

Most people believe the world out there holds the answer. If I can just get enough money in the bank, if I can get that one person to love me, if I can win that award or reach that career pinnacle, then everything will be okay and my boat will sail smoothly through life. But true power comes when you’re no longer afraid of losing everything. And I think you can create more when you’re less afraid.

Some people create just enough to stay in a holding pattern where they can manage. Imagine instead that there’s no limit to what you can create or how you can impact the world. You start seeing possibility. You’re no longer feeling separate from the political or economic climate. You think, “I am the Self. How can I hold my mind, how can I become someone who is impactful in the world,” someone whose influence ripples through humanity.

It’s more of an inside job than an outside job. I love the protesters and the people speaking up, and yes, please vote. But we can’t ignore the inner work. That inner work gives us the wisdom to be truly effective in this effort for our world and our freedom.

Leadership and the Awakening That Comes With Chaos

Dr. Rob: Yes. Inner work should be a prerequisite for any leader. Not prescribed in any particular way, but because we trust that at the core of every human being is this Self. If leaders do inner work, they’ll realize the Self and act wisely for the betterment of the whole human race and the whole world.

In many ways we’re seeing the opposite: leaders who rule by tapping into the lower elements of human nature, like greed, fear, and hatred.

Debra: The fears.

Dr. Rob: And that becomes part of how society and civilizations operate. It’s not a good position. History shows us what happens. These patterns play out again and again.

But one of the optimistic insights from our work is that when chaos arises in the world, a sense of order and inner knowing also arises. It’s there.

Debra: And a desire. When people are in pain, they look for solutions instead of staying “comfortably numb,” to borrow the old phrase from the ’70s. That’s where most people were: “I don’t need to vote or be part of what’s happening. Everything’s okay.” Then things get stirred up, and people wake up.

We see this in our own lives, too. Everything’s fine, and then a diagnosis turns your life upside down, or a family member gets sick, or a spouse passes, or your parents move in with you, or your job changes. These chaotic moments on a personal level are where most people are called to something more, to go past self-actualization toward transcendence.

Which is a little plug for our coaching program beginning soon, called Second Horizon. We’ll be guiding people through this process: working with your shadow, with what you’ve pushed away, becoming whole so you can do something important in this world. We’re looking for people who want their own second horizon, and who want to see the world have its second horizon, a new beginning with meaningful work and meaningful change.

Maslow, Jung, and Vedanta: Where They Meet and Where They Differ

Debra: So Rob, we have Maslow, Jung, and Advaita Vedanta. Where do they overlap, and where are they different?

Dr. Rob: I’d say Maslow focuses on growing your potential. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s still focused on you as an individual.

Debra: Which describes a lot of coaching out there: motivational coaching, think positive, you can do it, reach your dreams. Which is great.

Dr. Rob: Jung’s individuation process is about facing and becoming aware, bringing to consciousness what’s hidden in you in order to reach wholeness. It’s more internal work.

Debra: And to clarify, what’s hidden isn’t only the negative or ugly parts of us. It’s also our brilliance, our light, our power, our deeper Self. It’s integrating every part of ourselves we don’t yet know, and most of it is our potential. A lot of people think, “I don’t want to look inside and relive my childhood.” But most of what we find is our beauty, brilliance, and power waiting to be reclaimed.

Dr. Rob: And Vedanta focuses on discovering the Self, realizing that you are the Self, pure consciousness, and through that gaining wisdom and what we might call universal spiritual power.

Debra: And practicing non-attachment. Whatever you create, you’re not attached to it, so you transcend the ego’s need to cling.

Dr. Rob: It’s a powerful discipline. When people truly understand the message of this philosophy, they’re empowered in every way, because it’s our true nature. It’s who we are. From this perspective, that true essence is simply covered over by the persona, what Jung called the mask. We over-identify as individuals, as personalities, as mind-bodies. Again, nothing wrong with that. It’s a stage of development we need to cultivate. But in the second half of life, the second horizon as you call it, we pursue the higher goal of self-transcendence: transcending the old self to realize the true Self.

Debra: So in the first part of life, you climb Maslow’s pyramid and reach self-actualization, feeling you’ve accomplished everything. In the next stage, some people jump straight to Eastern philosophy: “I want to be the Self.” But unless you also work on the personal level, which is where Jung comes in, you risk spiritual bypassing. You’re just using beautiful spiritual ideas to feel free of the ego.

That’s what I think is unique about our approach: we integrate both Jung and Vedanta. We need to transcend the ego, and we also need to examine our personal history. Jung said we need both.

You’re not abandoning the first half of life. That stage is perfect, and it’s actually wonderful. Once you’ve learned how to create from ego, imagine what you can create from your true Self. Settling for ego-based creation, just climbing the pyramid, means settling for very little. Since you already know how to create in the world, what can you create now, without attachment? You’re not getting rid of your ego. You’re living with it, and understanding your personal experience.

Why would we have a body, patterns, feelings, and emotions if we weren’t meant to use them in this life? It’s not about floating in a beam of light with no feelings. It’s about being in the delicious fullness of life: the pain when someone we love passes or gets sick, heartbreak, falling in love, the joy of achieving something. We don’t want to trade all that for vanilla. We want both.

Most people complete the first stage but rarely reach the next ones. Some do Jungian work, know themselves well, understand their patterns, and function with more self-awareness, but never move into transcending the psyche. The psyche is the individual and their experience in the world. The Self is something much greater.

When it comes to changing the world, it always starts with changing yourself: knowing your own material and your projections so you can handle other people’s. Because when you set out to change the world, things will come at you. You’ll meet resistance. If you don’t know how to navigate that psychologically, you’ll give up. This work helps you become unstoppable and unwavering in your faith that there is light, there is possibility, and the world can be better. It won’t be perfect. There will always be dark and light. But it would be nice to have a little more light sometimes.

Dr. Rob: Like I said earlier, whether you lead a country, a company, your family, or simply yourself, having a sense of agency, knowing you’re here for a purpose, to do something important, to help others and make the world better, this inner work is essential. And it isn’t prescriptive. We’re not telling you what to believe or how to do it. It’s a way of finding those answers within yourself: What am I here to do? How do I act on it? How do I find the courage to act on my great ideas?

Debra: And it’s about falling in love with every part of yourself instead of judging, hiding, or resisting. It’s accepting that people are human. I don’t believe most people set out to harm others. People do harmful things without being conscious of it, often believing they’re doing something right. We can’t fight that with anger. We have to meet it with compassion. Gandhi did a pretty good job of that. Many spiritual leaders have helped us through hard times, and maybe it’s in you to step forward and be that kind of leader too.

Your Practice for This Week

Debra: That ties a bow on our series on Maslow. I love overlaying his work with Jungian and Eastern philosophy, because Jung and Freud were foundational to so much of modern psychology, and it’s powerful to see how later ideas relate back to them. If you’re a psychology geek like me, you love this stuff.

So here’s what you can do today. When world events trigger you, ask yourself: What is this pulling from me? What is this fear really about? How does this feel personally threatening? Understand why you’re reacting the way you are, and you’ll gain the insight you need to help change the world.

Then ask a second question: Is this feeling a pattern in my life? Where else does it show up? You’ll start to see the ego pattern shaping how you perceive the world and the possibilities in your own life.

Dr. Rob: Well said.

Debra: Do your homework! Have a great day, everyone. Thanks for joining us, and we’ll see you soon.

Dr. Rob: See you next time.