Difference Between Enlightenment and Spiritual Bypassing

Episode Transcript

Debra Maldonado (00:00.901)
Hello everyone, welcome back to Jung on Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:06.198)
I’m Doctor Rob. Welcome.

Debra Maldonado (00:08.747)
And we are excited for another episode. As always, we are going to be talking about enlightenment today, continuing on our conversation of moksha in the last episode. And before we begin diving into this juicy topic, I want to ask you a favor if you could subscribe to our channel if you’re watching us on YouTube or if you are listening to us on iTunes or Spotify or any of the podcast services. We’d love for you to subscribe and be here each week with us and share it with your friends.

We want to reach more people always. So enlightenment, Rob, I I would love for you, if you can, what is the definition of enlightenment? What is enlightenment, Dr. Rob?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:40.716)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:48.584)
Mm. Yeah. how much time do we have?

Debra Maldonado (00:55.641)
In one if you’ve opened up a dictionary

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:58.452)
Right. there are many definitions, I would say, but we can let’s say talk about our perspective on it.

And and you know, we cannot speak for everyone, of course. our background is in psychology, in hypnosis, in coaching. So we’re we’re coming from that perspective.

So if we think about ignorance, we go back to ignorance. Ignorance is from kind of our our perspective, is the state of mind where we falsely believe and over-identify with our persona. Internally, what this means is we identify as our ego. We listen to our ego, our eye.

I mean mine, and believe that what it’s telling us must be true. That’s kind of one of the side effects of this state of mind. So enlightenment.

in a s in one sense is freedom from that. It’s the the clarification that that’s not who we are. It’s that aspect of our mind acts like a cover. It it covers over, it veils the true essence of our psyche, our awareness, our consciousness. And it makes us believe

Dr. Rob Maldonado (02:46.017)
Falsely believe that we’re limited and that we are simply this mind body.

Debra Maldonado (02:53.477)
And separate from everything that we the world is things happen outside of us and the reality outside of us, there’s an objective reality that that we can’t change.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (02:55.412)
yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (03:06.709)
Right. And we feel powerless. One of the side effects of that is that we feel powerless because if we’re projecting everything and saying everything is out there, that’s a powerful world and a powerful universe. And I’m separate from it, meaning I am kind of up against terrible odds in in that situation. there’s no way for me to win.

And therefore the best I can do is kind of rationalize and and find a way or ignore it, right? Which is what we often do. We kind of ignore the reality and say, Well, I I’m helpless against all that. So I’m just gonna put my head down and and do this work and and focus on my job. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (03:56.912)
Or just try to survive, right? You’re kinda like treading water of life.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:02.113)
Yeah, I like that. Treading water, just keeping our head above the water.

Debra Maldonado (04:06.789)
Don’t drown, keep keep your head up. And you’re exhausted. And you’re not enjoying life and you’re not you’re not completely suffering, but you’re not enjoying life and it’s the monotony at all.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:10.197)
And yes.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:20.469)
Yeah, actually what like a lot of us know the Buddha, the Buddha saying life is suffering. What he meant was wasn’t this intense, painful suffering. He just meant like there’s always a dissatisfaction in our mind. Like we always sense that there’s something missing in in this life in this world that I’m in. and that sense of dissatisfaction.

doesn’t go away even though we achieve and experience and have a lot of things, it doesn’t go away. And he he says that’s the essential nature of the mind. And when we identify with the ego, we’re in that misidentification, intensely in it, that it becomes our our world, our our experience of our life.

Debra Maldonado (05:15.771)
What I find it interesting is that a lot of people tie that feeling of not being enough to some kind of childhood event or because my parents were critical. This predates that. The you’re born with not enough. I mean, the the the essence of being in a body, it’s it it’s part of your human nature to feel not enough, not not worthy, all those things are natural part of human experience. maybe the parents ex magnified that a little bit.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (05:40.237)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (05:43.036)
But it’s not, they weren’t the source. It would, we were born at with an ego that has that tendency. And so understand that’s the nature of the mind versus a pathology or a wound in you that you have. Because I remember thinking, I always had this feeling I’m not enough. Even now, like I always I could go back to that in my mind. I’m I have to keep working on myself and it’s it’s never gonna go away. So enlightenment is about understanding that that’s not real, that you don’t need to fix it.

Would you say?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (06:14.314)
Yeah, in part.

Debra Maldonado (06:15.043)
It’s like seeing through the I mean, not all of it, but seeing like an aspect of enlightenment is going, that’s the nature of my mind. I’m not

Dr. Rob Maldonado (06:26.478)
And I would just simply kind of to clarify, right? because i in Western culture, reality and non-reality or illusion have certain connotations that I think miss the point. It doesn’t mean that we take the world to be unreal or illusory, completely illusory. It simply means that we understand that it’s an impermanent appearance of things.

And that that it’s a subjective interpretation that we’re experiencing that clarifies it for the enlightened person. It gives us a better sense, a more realistic sense of what we expect from.

When we think it’s permanent and that it’s completely real, like an absolute, we’re

Debra Maldonado (07:19.749)
Or it’s doing something to us that the source of the pain is coming pain from out. It’s an external force that’s making us suffer.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (07:22.57)
Yes, we’re giving it too much power.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (07:29.088)
Yeah, we’re giving it too much power and it’s going to cause us suffering. Because if we’re you’re if we feel powerless, that itself is a su is a type of suffering. That we feel we don’t have agency, we don’t have the ability to create and to change and to you know take action. enlightenment puts it in perspective. It says, what you’re experiencing in this world.

is a type of reality, but it’s impermanent and it’s subjective. In other words, you’re interpreting it and therefore you can change it. And and and it’s up to you. You you’re the experiencer. You’re the observer.

Debra Maldonado (08:17.849)
And so w how would you describe enlightenment? Would what why would someone need to want enlightenment in their life?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (08:25.484)
Yeah.

I think if we frame it in suffering terms, in the term of suffering, and and again, suffering is not just the pain or or the the loss that we feel when we lose loved ones and all that. It’s also the dissatisfaction, right? The like like you were saying, it’s thinking that something went wrong in my life and I have to find the cause and therefore

I blame my parents or society or you know, my teachers, something, right? that’s the easiest trap to fall into. Enlightenment clarifies all that. It gives you the strength and the ability and the clarity to acknowledge that those things happen to you, but that they’re lessons to for you.

And that they do not define who you are. That

Debra Maldonado (09:28.165)
Well, here’s a great example. Let’s say I hear this, I see this all over the internet. The mother wound or the father wound. And the mother criticizes you your whole life. She’s a narcissist, whatever it is, you know, the story. And so she made me suffer, and that’s why my life is suffering because of her. And she criticized me my whole life. She never gave me any love. So this is why I am the way I am. Now we’re not denying that didn’t happen.

But what we want enlightenment means. So she had we I had this experience. My mind took it as what my mother told me was true about me. And I’m holding on to that truth. Like she criticized me. She said, you know, I was ugly or stupid or whatever. I I accepted that about me. So my mind is accepting that about me and identifying with that. So you have the power to free yourself from that. Like you don’t have to define yourself.

by your parents’ words or your parents’ actions. We are free to let that go. We don’t have to go back and heal that little girl as much as say, I don’t believe that anymore about myself. Like I s I don’t identify as what I think my mom was projecting on me or from that experience. Because we it there’s always takes two, right? There’s a person who’s the maybe the aggressor and then the person who receives that and that person who receives it can accept it or not.

I always say that if you were if you knew you were really smart and someone called you stupid, you would be it would like wipe off like that off the duck’s back the water, right? It would be just it wouldn’t hit you. But there there was like a something to click to, like velcro, and you’re you have the power to let go of that velcro. You don’t have to blame your mother for the rest of your life. You could say, I don’t need to identify with her description of me anymore. Like that’s not me. that is really powerful.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:23.244)
Yeah. And that is a consequence of enlightenment, meaning of understanding and waking up to the true nature of your human experience instead of the the apparent reality that the senses give us. Because the senses are designed to give us information about our status.

As ego, as body, as this particular mind-body. It gives us a pretty good status report on where we’re at. Am I comfortable? Am I safe? Et cetera, et cetera. But that’s not the total reality of what we are. There’s this consciousness, and thank God recently human beings have started to really discuss this question of what is consciousness?

Well, consciousness cannot be defined. You know, it’s like in in the Tao. The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao, meaning

Debra Maldonado (12:29.713)
Can you also talk about the two different consciousness? ‘Cause people confuse them a lot. The consciousness like awakened mind or versus pure consciousness. Just I always have to remind you. Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (12:34.253)
Yes.

Yeah, especially in the West. Yeah. I I was trained in clinical psychology in the Western style, and the whole idea was that consciousness is our cognition, and our in other words, our understanding, our ability to use our brains to figure things out and solve problems.

We can say that well, that’s one aspect of consciousness, but that doesn’t define it. That just means we’re defining cognition and thinking and and solving problems and those kind of things.

Debra Maldonado (13:09.805)
And our conscious awareness, basically, what we’re aware of, not what we’re c unconscious of.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (13:13.132)
Yeah, that’s that’s in the East that’s simply defined as our waking state. It’s simply like defined as that’s your waking state you’re defining, not not consciousness. consciousness cannot be defined because it’s not an object. It’s not like electricity or some kind of energy. We’re not gonna define it because we’re looking for the wrong thing. We’re looking for an object.

We can define cognition and we can define brain functions, but we cannot define consciousness because once you define it, you’re leaving out its major aspect, which is that it it’s everything and it’s in everything, and it’s allowing everything to arise. So we can conceptualize it at least and come close to a conceptualization of it as.

The space that in which our perception of the universe arises. In other words, if we ask, where does all this universe exist? Where does the world exist? Where is it? We can say it is in consciousness, and it is made out of consciousness. So that

You know, i i it’s our our brains can’t even conceptualize it properly, but it’s in that direction.

Debra Maldonado (14:46.981)
Well, I have a good metaphor that might help. so think about the room you’re in right now, like this room, right? There’s objects that you could see, and then there’s the air or the space that fills it, but you can’t really see the air. It’s like empty. But it it it it it gives right like if be if the air wasn’t there, these other things wouldn’t exist because the air allows the material items to have life. the the space gives it life, gives it space. So when we think about

it’s it it’s absent of any objects, it’s absent absent of a label, and so it’s that pure emptiness, some people call it in Buddhism, right? That emptiness, that everything arises from.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (15:29.848)
Yeah, yeah.

Debra Maldonado (15:31.011)
It’s is a space between our words, a sp everything that’s you can’t define.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (15:36.301)
Yes. Luckily though, the the higher knowledge teaches us a way to access it. In other words, because we are part of that, we can always have a direct experience of it, although we cannot explain it to another or communicate it in verbal language because language contains a dualistic principle, right? It’s meant meant

To describe the world of objects, not consciousness. So in one of the famous sermons, the Buddha, his whole sermon was he held up a flower. That’s it. And he said, That’s my sermon to you. What he meant was, there’s no use in trying to explain it verbally. You’re not gonna get it. But you are that.

You are that very consciousness and and it is the basis of your human experience. But we focus so much on the objects, on the experience itself.

Debra Maldonado (16:46.201)
And the objects are like a limited expression of consciousness, temporarily limited expression of consciousness, just like we are. We’re a temporary, limited expression of consciousness that’s conditioned. But in the grand state of things, consciousness can’t be conditioned. So it’s like this illusion that we’re stuck in this pattern, but we’re always free. So it’s just like the mother who criticizes the child, she grows up thinking, I have to fix this part of myself.

It’s not denying that that didn’t happen or you don’t have those thoughts or those feelings and your body doesn’t react a certain way when you hear someone criticize you. But the cause is not the parent doing that to you. The cause is you believe that that that’s you. And if you you you really exhibit and say, and this is the hardest thing. I know people aren’t gonna make my get it right away, but it’s something to think about if you’re not identifying with that person that got criticized.

And you could be anything you want to be, because consciousness is unlimited, then what would that do? You don’t need to heal the past because you’re here and you’re you’re able to choose who you identify as. Do you identify as this ego that’s broken and has all these patterns, or do you identify as this unlimited potential? Not to bypass that stuff, but it’s to if you come from that understanding, it’s easier for you to get there. it doesn’t mean you don’t process or think about

how what that mean meant to you and all those things. But ultimately, where are you going? It’s not about going backwards and making the past better so that you can be have a current present. It’s about where am I going next? You know, how do I want to carry this with me my whole life and define myself as that child my whole life. And the mind is the only thing that’s hanging on to it because there’s it’s everything’s temporary.

Like you said, so it’s it’s everything’s like moving and temporary and evolving. And the things that we hold on to are the one things that we that make us suffer and keep us from that enlightenment.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (18:54.21)
Yes. So that’s one of the questions that often comes up in our lectures is if it’s so present and so much a part of everything, why do we not experience it as that? Right? For from the ordinary perspective, it appears that the world is made out of these objects and that the world is out there separate from me. That’s that’s our

ordinary experience. And the answer is this that there’s a veil covering this aspect of our true nature, our that we are pure consciousness or or infinite consciousness. And it’s called Maya. So Maya has two principles. It covers over the absolute

reality of this one consciousness. And then it projects our own limited assumptions about what the world is onto that veil. So that the the illusion is complete. It appears as a separate world that is fragmented. It’s out there independent of my mind

My mind is in my skull or in my body and the world is out there somewhere. That’s how it appears to us. But it’s Maya that is making it appear that way. Once we we remove the veil through higher knowledge, through meditation, through insight, through enlightenment, then we experience it directly.

Debra Maldonado (20:47.299)
And I think that we w have these troubles early in life because we need something to work against. So instead of thinking this bad thing happened to me and I gotta heal myself from it, we could say, What am I learning about myself? Where did my limitation begin? And how can I use this to understand who I’m not so I can be who I’m meant to be? Because we need something, like you said, there we need an object to bounce off of.

That’s in the space to understand the reality and the and the and to get enlightened. So it’s not that, I am I’m so glad bad things happen to me, but it’s like use it, use it for your growth, use it for your self-awareness, because ultimately it’s your mind that’s creating the suffering, not the events, not the other people, not the world, it’s your mind.

And enlightenment really, I think, is not about it doesn’t look any different on the outside. It’s the ability to discern what is real and what is unreal, and what is passing and fleeting and what is lasting. And and not ignoring the world, but understanding that the world is this temporary ups and downs of life. like in the Upanishads, they talk about the two birds sitting in the tree, one bird eats the bitter and sour fruits of life.

While the other watches in non-attachment, most of us are just focused on that one bird. And enlightenment is inviting this other part in, this other witness part. That’s the closest thing we can get to our true nature in a human body is that witness mind is the really first. it it’s a direct reflection of the totality of everything. We are the the pure consciousness. We have access to it, like the seed of it. Like I wrote in my book, the like a spark from fire, it’s like the spark.

and the fire are exactly the same substance. It’s just different in name and form. And so that our inig individual witness mind is identical to the or the witness beingness is identical to that consciousness that’s the universal presence that’s in us.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (23:02.126)
That’s beautiful. there are so many spiritual practices and and of course everybody

Kinda takes their own techniques or their their own experiences to be the real or the absolute or or the the only way perhaps to to achieve enlightenment. But really if if we understand the teachings, this these ancient wisdom traditions, what they say is everybody has access to it because

Everyone is the self. Everyone is this consciousness. It’s simply that it’s covered over by Maya, by this illusory experience of individuality. So the good news is that it’s not we’re we’re not achieving anything special really when we’re enlightened. It’s simply that we’re waking up to

What is the the real real? What is the true absolute reality? And it’s always there. It never goes away. It can’t go away. We wouldn’t exist without it. But we’re we’re realizing it. That’s why it’s always framed as self-realization. You’re realizing the true nature of yourself that’s always been there. And that you will continue to be, whether you’re aware of it or not.

We simply in enlightenment, we simply choose to be aware of it and to participate in a conscious way where we are experiencing in the absolute way instead of the apparent way.

Debra Maldonado (24:58.001)
When I first started out on my journey and I was in my twenties, and my first book I read was Louise Hayes, You Can Heal Your Life, and thought about my the positive mind and your thoughts create your life. And I said, my thoughts create my life. I thought God was in charge of that. I was very Catholic, went to church every week and really very devout. And and I was like, hmm. Like I was waiting for God to bestow good luck on me. I’d pray to answer my prayers and felt helpless.

And when I got heard that, I was like, this is actually pretty cool. Like and so I started on this journey of of learning buying all these self help books and exploring spirituality. And I tried everything. And I think that’s a really important part. I think people sometimes feel that’s bad, but there’s a beginning stage of the spiritual awak awakening and some of you maybe still be in there, some of you are just leaving.

Or it’s it’s just it’s a phase of just trying everything on and and just you don’t know yet what your path is. And so there is that discovery phase where everything’s just seems like interesting and new and you’re learning all these things, but you’re not really getting anywhere yet. You still feel like the patterns are still there, but you’re kind of understanding a little bit more about life. I like I call like self-awareness with a little S. Like I knew my patterns, I knew what an ego was, I knew what.

maybe spirit was and you know, all these things. and then started doing all the like extreme, like non-scientific woo-woo stuff and, you know, explored everything. And I think we all need to kind of stretch our legs a little bit and figure out what’s right for us. But there comes a point where we have to decide on a path, like a foundation, because you can technique your way you can’t technique your way to enlightenment. You can’t go to a workshop and do a technique and think it’s gonna

reveal everything and you’re gonna be enlightened. or take a dru what are those ayahuasca retreats or plant medicine and they’re gonna make give you enlightenment. I mean, those things can open up your mind, but techniques alone aren’t a path. And so I got to the point, especially when I met you, Rob, I was like, this is interesting. Even when I was a hypnotherapist, I was trying other techniques with my hypnotherapy and trying all these things. And then you started teaching

Debra Maldonado (27:19.917)
you introduced me to Eastern philosophy. And I was like, wait a minute. This is like a deeper layer of understanding how the mind works and stuff that’s not taught in the pop psychology. And I started realizing that some of the stuff I was doing was just feeding my ego and it was fun, like spiritual entertainment, but it wasn’t really helping me like face the tough stuff. You know, it was like helping me feel good and

see these beautiful figures and these guides and angels and all this stuff, which is fine and great. And, you know, we’re not discounting that at all. But I felt like I wasn’t I was avoiding the tough part of the work. And when I started going deeper and and it it gave me this I think of it as pruning. Like when we’re kids, we our brain is a w you know so wide and and taking a lot in and then you start pruning what you need. And then you get to a stage where you’re pruning and you’re

Dr. Rob Maldonado (27:58.509)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (28:16.857)
If you have a strong foundation of what you really believe, like if you believe in the non-dual philosophy that everything’s one, then all the stuff that doesn’t say that or that’s talking about positive, negative, or getting rid of things that it’s not, they don’t fit anymore. And so you start like really honing in on your practice. Otherwise, you’re having practice of very disparate practices that don’t go together. And that’s where I was kind of almost to and found the

wonderful Eastern philosophy. And my first coach actually before I met Rob was her her background was in Vedanta as well. And so she started coaching me in this non-dual way. And I’m like, wait. Like there’s no positive or negative. I’m like, what? That’s what I do. I make the negative thoughts positive. And it really changed everything of how I approached it. And I felt like I got more traction in that year. and then I met Rob and then it just it felt like I was finally

getting traction and moving forward. And you often talk about that people you if you dig shallow holes, you know, you just keep digging shallow holes, you’re never getting anywhere, but you you dig a deep hole and you dedicate yourself to one idea, one fundamental idea, that’s where everything changes. And so just wanted to share that because with the internet right now and AI and it’s easy to get distracted the next

Dr. Rob Maldonado (29:34.87)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (29:43.12)
you know, fad out there, next technique fad that everyone jumps on. you know, it it’s like easy to get like the sh see the shiny object and think this is the thing that’s gonna change me. But it’s it’s really comes down to that what do I really believe on a fundamental level about who I am and what the universe is. And then the whatever techniques fit into that will work for you, not the technique it out it’s the technique in it to give you that enlightenment. You have to

Understand what that is first and find things that fit. Does that make sense?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (30:17.942)
Yeah, it’s an interesting dilemma that we’re in. and we all fall or or like you say, maybe it’s it’s more of a phase that we have to go through where we ex we’re experimenting, right? We’re seeking and and experimenting with techniques. And and obviously because we’re still an ego, we’re looking for easy.

Debra Maldonado (30:43.269)
Fast, easy, easy, cheap, and fast. And if someone promotes that, you know your mind your ego’s like, Yes, I have to pay $39 and I’m all my problems will be solved. And it won’t be hard. It’ll be easy because you just do these three steps and it’s done. So tempting.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (30:43.598)
Cheap and fast.

That’s right.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (30:52.888)
Let’s do that. Take a pill. Yeah. Take take.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (31:01.998)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so we all we all go through that phase. But it’s important to realize, right? To understand that when we’re doing that, we’re digging shallow holes. Meaning it’s like a person trying to find water by digging a well that they start to dig, but they only go three feet deep. And then

say or give up, right? And say, that’s not working. I’m not Yeah. As you get tired, yeah, it requires discipline, requires study. You say, Well somebody’s saying the the water’s over there and it’s easier to find and it’s you know on the surface. So I’m just gonna go over there.

Debra Maldonado (31:32.739)
Or it when it gets hard they they change. They I know I did.

Debra Maldonado (31:42.161)
Commitment.

Debra Maldonado (31:50.534)
You can buy this new pump for only ninety-nine cents. That’s gonna give you the depth that you need. in in twenty in one hour. The seven minute abs. But that’s human nature. We all want that cheap easy. We want to the least amount of the least amount of friction to get what we want. That’s the ego.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (31:53.486)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (31:59.812)
Yes.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (32:10.2)
Yeah, yeah. And and so spirituality, you know, a lot of people think like you were saying, it’s about these, you know, visions of light and and positivity and and heaven and and all this good stuff. Yeah. But when we when we seek that,

We’re kinda digging shallow holes because as soon as we face the big challenges of that path, we’ll switch to something easier.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (32:48.302)
So the the challenge for us at at that stage, right, is to dedicate ourselves to one path and really commit to it. Now it doesn’t have to be let’s say something that doesn’t allow you to experiment with other ideas or or learn about other ideas, but you choose it as

This is what I’m doing. This is my path, my way of expressing my consciousness, my true self, right? Because that what that will do is allow you to go the full distance, to find that deep water in the well and quench your thirst. In other words, find spiritual satisfaction. Yeah. And

Debra Maldonado (33:40.057)
Really satiate that thirst, right?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (33:45.293)
That’s what it requires. And it it from the ego perspective, that means it’s it feels like sacrifice. It feels like discipline. Like I have to discipline my mind. I cannot

Debra Maldonado (33:57.746)
I to go to the gym three time, three to four times a week and lift heavy weights and not just walk gently on the treadmill thinking I’m working out.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (34:06.994)
Or or sit and meditate. Sit and and meditate on something that is difficult, that’s uncomfortable.

Debra Maldonado (34:13.295)
Sit with a feeling that’s uncomfortable versus trying to get rid of it and making it positive.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (34:19.182)
Yeah. And so all those are lessons that a lot of us have learned the hard way. and and so fet’s say part of our work is teaching that so that people don’t have to waste a lot of their time and energy in those activities and and help them find their own path. Now the great thing about the the work that we do.

Again, that we approach it as higher knowledge, yes, but we don’t approach it in terms of dogma. That it’s not yeah, it’s not the only way to do it or the the only thing you can do or that you should do. It it it allows for your own interpretation. In other words, it’s trusting that.

Debra Maldonado (34:55.557)
Like a religion.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (35:14.306)
Because you are that pure consciousness already, you’re going to find your own way. We’re simply giving you the tools, the philosophy, the ideas that you need to do your own work. And so yeah.

Debra Maldonado (35:31.514)
And it’s and it’s hard. It’s if it and and we a lot of us don’t want to do hard. We’re like life is hard enough. Why do wanna but it’s it’s really wrestling with the tough things of life, not events, but more like the tough moral questions, you know, and and and things that don’t seem inconvenient. My coach at the time, I said, How come they don’t teach this in the pop psychology or pop spirituality? She said, They they only tell you the good news, so they don’t tell you the bad news.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (35:48.695)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (36:01.693)
And I remember Rob and I used to go to this Buddhist center in Denver and the woman there, I she’s probably still having nightmares about me, but she taught this practice about taking on the suffering of others so that we can purify our mind. And so I was like, this is great, I’m gonna do that. And so there was a woman that came to me when I was a hypnotherapist and she gave me a fake credit card and she was fraudulated for fra it was fraudulent and

It was just really bad. And I lost all the the cup, you know, a couple sessions of money from it. And I was kind of irritated that someone would do that to me, like scam me like that. And so I said, okay, I’m gonna take on her karma and I’m going to feel the feeling of, you know, this woman. And and then wouldn’t you know, someone did the it to me again, another another person used my credit card for some other thing.

And I had to call and I’m like, why is this happening? And I so I went to the teacher and I said, I did your thing where you took on the thing the karma of others and then this kept this happened. And she goes, Debbie, were you just pretending like she was a British woman and meaning that you weren’t really trying to work with it. You wanted to escape it, you know, I wanted to clear it out or get rid of it. And I was like, that’s what this is about.

So it’s it’s not the clearing it out, getting rid of it, and I’m purifying it and everything’s gonna be happy. It’s like, no, I gotta face it more. And it was really interesting because what I learned is that, my mind is so powerful that I focus on this. I’m gonna create more of this. And that’s what really is happening is karma is not something bad happens to you. It’s whatever you’re focused on, you’ll keep continuing to create because it’s the karma. That’s what you’re

Create and what we’re pushing away and you’re trying to push away will keep coming to you until you face it. So very it was a tough lesson. And I didn’t lose that much money. It was like a hundred bucks on that other one. But it was just so funny that she was like, Are you just pretending? And like, are you really wanna do this work? Or you just wanna like here for the the pomp and circumstance and the the chanting and all that. And and so that’s the tough lessons that you learn.

Debra Maldonado (38:24.859)
Enlightenment. It doesn’t mean that everything’s just going to be smooth in your life. It’s like the tough things are going to come up and it’s going to give you an opportunity to enter looking at it in an enlightened way. Wouldn’t you say, Rob?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (38:38.599)
Yeah, I remember that same teacher, I think was one of the ones that taught us that to have problems is a benefit for us if we approach it in a particular way. In other words, if we see them as here’s an opportunity to work with my mind. Can I face this uncomfortable situation?

Debra Maldonado (38:51.439)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (39:07.142)
resolve it, in other words, do my part in what I need to do, not run away from it, not try to simply clear it or or kind of make it go away. But to really absorb its lesson, it it allows us to practice with something minor, perhaps, like you’re saying, but it prepares us for the bigger challenges that come afterwards.

Debra Maldonado (39:18.438)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (39:34.596)
And so I think a lot of people, like I said before, use spiritual kind of tools to create material, like they want their life to be more abundant or they want to find their soulmate. And they’re using like these spiritual kind of language and the ego loves it because it’s like, I’m doing spiritual work. But if you’re attached to getting an outer result through it, it and then you don’t get it, that that’s the test. Is this really for spirituality or is it for you getting that thing?

And so I approach it as I don’t want these things happening to me anymore. So I’m going to purify it for myself. But I was attached to it not happening to me. So it’s very, very subtle. But even that idea of manifestation, it’s like using those spiritual ideas, like, you’re pure potential. You can create anything you want. And then you get the ego’s like, ooh, yay, let’s do this. Let’s create more money. And then you’re caught up in that, but you’re doing it from ego and you’re not truly liberated because you’re doing.

You feel like you’re enlightened when everything works out or that idea that you’re in the flow, right? That everything’s flowing, that you must be enlightened now. But the most enlightened people are the ones who face, like you said, the problems are able to s face adversity with complete power and strength and courage. Not those who can put like Shanti Deva said, like putting the leather around the world so we don’t feel the b the sharp barbs and the the glass that’s on our feet, you know.

We have we we don’t cover the world with leather. We wear shoes and and learn how to work with our mind. So we can go through the tough parts of life. So very, very powerful. And and again, I remember Krishna said, honor whatever, whatever path someone’s on, because it all leads to me or it all leads to the self. So it doesn’t matter what path you’re on now, but I I would love for you to discern am I caught up in is this my ego running my spiritual life or is it

Dr. Rob Maldonado (41:10.456)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (41:30.107)
coming from someplace steeper. And that’s just a really good question to ask. Is this just building more ego, this spiritual practice or so called spiritual practice, or is it freeing me from ego?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (41:42.925)
Yes. And so beyond our path, our individual path, right, that we choose and we stay on and we dedicate dedicate our life and effort to, we also need a teacher or a guide, or in our case, a coach. coaching, we see it as the latest iteration of the the guru.

pupil dynamic that’s always been around the teacher pupil, the guide, the mountaineer, right? The Sherpa leading the the mountaineer up the up the mountain. We all all of us need a guide because our tendency is to go back to ego. It’s the it’s the simplest kind of

trap that we fall into because it’s our nature to to want simple to want to not face uncomfortable situations and go for the easy way out all right so once we find our path we need a guide the third thing is we need a community we need to be surrounded by like minded people

Debra Maldonado (43:07.034)
Yes.

Debra Maldonado (43:10.821)
That are on the same path, that are understand, speak the same language.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (43:14.572)
Yes.

That th that triad is the ideal way of reaching your goals. Which

Debra Maldonado (43:26.03)
In Buddhism they call it the Sangha.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (43:29.228)
Yes. we’re not Buddhists though, but the bo Buddhism is one of the schools that grew out of the teachings of the Upanishads. but we see its wisdom that if you have a teaching that you’re following, a path, and you’re dedicated to it, you you’re pretty sure to reach enlightenment. It’s pretty much guaranteed. but you do need a guide.

Debra Maldonado (43:31.941)
No.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (43:59.171)
So that you don’t waste time on kind of falling back or going down the wrong path. and also you need that support, which is a community of like-minded people, that gives you that inspiration. You notice that most people that have reached these higher levels of consciousness, they’ve always done it in in the context of community. And we’re

Debra Maldonado (44:26.469)
Well, because the community lifts each other up. It’s like we’re working on one great example is that we we’re projecting all the time and everyone around us is a part of us. So what you’re the teacher and the teacher’s coaching someone and you’re watching, you’re getting coached too just by being in that room. Your unconscious is is is purifying itself. So it’s you’re purifying you actually but get more from watching than actually being in the hot seat.

And so it’s a really beautiful way to accelerate, not to make it too easy, but accelerate it where you’re not off track. And and I I found I’ve spent so many years searching and searching. And I probably, you know, could have cut my path in half a a little bit. And so those of you are kind of been searching for a while and feeling like you’re just you don’t know what where you’re going. Like what am what is this all about?

That’s a great question to ask. Like, why am I doing this technique? Why am I exploring this path? Where am I going? What do I believe about my life? Those are really great questions. And and they start helping you discern what you really want and what path is right for you.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (45:39.63)
Yeah. And

Debra Maldonado (45:41.667)
Anyway, what a great conversation, Rob. It’s I love talking about enlightenment.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (45:45.817)
Yeah. And the simple kind of situation is this. If you’re not enthralled, if you’re not waking up in amazement of your life and and what you’re experiencing, you need to make some changes. You know, you need to be fully alive, fully present to this world. It it is our dharma, it is our purpose as human beings. And and the

Situations that we’re seeing today in the world, the reason they’re arising is because people are not paying attention, they’re not enthralled with their life in the world, they’re they’re kind of disconnected from it. And so the the way to fix it, let’s say the our contribution is our own life. If we don’t use our own life to contribute to that awakening, then we’re wasting it also, we’re wasting our own.

human life. And then that’s that’s what our teaching is about. This precious human life should be used to awaken ourselves and then to help awaken the world.

Debra Maldonado (46:47.857)
This precious human life, yeah.

Debra Maldonado (46:57.135)
Yeah. And spending t less time in the past and more about in the present and where you’re going and what you want to create and what you have to contribute to the world, I think is a beautiful way to be your second horizon. Being reborn as your true self. Yeah. A again, we have a new program coming out in the fall. So if you’re interested, make sure you get yourself on the waiting list. It’s in the show notes below.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (47:10.254)
That’s right.

Debra Maldonado (47:22.907)
Thank you, Rob, for an enlightened conversation. I feel every time we talk about this, it it never gets old. It just I get so much so many insights for myself. I hope you have too, and those listening. You might have heard talk about Dharma or non-attachment or consciousness. And I I just think every time we hear it, we just always need a reminder and we always get something new.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (47:45.454)
My pleasure.

Debra Maldonado (47:46.997)
My pleasure. Take care. Everyone, have a great week. We’ll see you next week on You on Purpose.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (47:50.638)
Mm-hmm.

See you soon.