How Childhood Emotional Patterns Still Control You

Episode Transcript

Debra (00:01.551)
Hello everyone, welcome back to Jung On Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.

Robert (00:06.862)
I’m Dr. Rob, welcome to the program.

Debra (00:09.729)
And we’re going to continue our series on early childhood development. And today and the next episode, we’ll be talking about emotions. This will be a two-parter, maybe more because we know that emotions are such a big part of personal growth and transformation. So today we’ll talk about birth to four years old and how emotions impact us at those young ages.

Robert (00:17.006)
you

Debra (00:36.485)
Those of who are parents, very interesting to listen to. And those of you who are dealing with childhood stuff, this may help you make a lot of sense. working with our coaches or therapists that are working with people with childhood, early childhood issues that we can go to. But we always approach it with a coaching model, with that caveat. Before we begin though, I do ask that you do us a favor. Select subscribe on the channel if you’re watching us on YouTube or if you’re listening to us on

Any of the podcast services, please make sure you subscribe. and if you like our videos and make a comment, we’d love to see those too. That helps us reach more people and get this information out to more people too. So Rob, I asked to this, I found emotions so fascinating. And when we talk about any type of personal development, there’s so much about emotion and young even said that there’s no transformation without emotion.

Robert (01:35.022)
Yeah.

Debra (01:35.095)
So I thought it would be really cool to kind of drill down and get really granular in that early life experience of emotions, which is a lot of times where people are trying to process their life and understand their patterns.

Robert (01:50.594)
Yeah, before I answer that, I wanted to give a shout out to all the people that attended our live event in Denver last week, which was amazing. Thank you so much. And you guys are the best, of course. We attract or the work attracts the best people in the world. Yeah, so emotion.

One of the things that really struck me early on when I was a student and I started to delve into this idea of early childhood development, how does the brain develop this ability to emote, to feel, to have emotions, was the fact that

From very early on from the get go, pretty much from day one, we’re ready to experience the world through our emotions, not cognitively. Cognition kicks in later.

Debra (03:05.581)
Is that because the brain is developing or what’s the reasoning for where we we evolved to not let that come on yet? Come online yet?

Robert (03:14.35)
Yeah, probably all of the above because we need our emotions to bond, first of all, whereas we don’t really need our logical reasoning to connect to other people. That kicks in later. But also that the brain structures that process emotion, as we know it,

They’re a lot older. And so they’re deeper brain structures that physiologically probably the fetus needs to develop early on. And so when we’re born, we’re ready to go. Whereas the neocortex is continuing to grow as we grow and our heads actually grow. So there’s more space to grow.

Debra (04:08.354)
Okay.

Debra (04:12.449)
that’s true. So what about like prenatal? Is there any research around like emotions prenatal where in the womb the baby learns like certain children that are the pregnant mother is anxious or the pregnant mother went through some kind of trauma or separation or financial stress and how that affects the emotional life?

Robert (04:12.939)
All the neurons and stuff.

Debra (04:40.001)
of the child, would you say that there is a component, like they’re not, they don’t just, you know, begin when the birth happens, like it’s when the baby develops in the womb.

Robert (04:51.085)
Yeah, well, of course, the baby in the womb is connected directly to the mother through the umbilical cord and is receiving pretty much all the hormones and neurotransmitters that the mother needs to experience all those emotions. And therefore, the baby, I’m sure, feels it to some extent, although that’s hypothetical, at least from

Debra (05:00.663)
All the neurosis, all the stuff.

Robert (05:21.663)
at the time I was studying, they might have done more research now and understand more about that. But yeah, but in general, of course, we can kind of understand that whatever the mother’s feeling, the baby’s going to be part of that experience as well.

Debra (05:42.052)
And if the baby doesn’t have the cognitive, the infant in the womb doesn’t have the cognitive rationale, it’s just pure feeling just like it is the first two years of life. The research shows that it’s the first two years that there really is not a lot of cognitive processing happening.

Robert (06:03.372)
Well, yeah, I mean that-

Debra (06:04.963)
around other emotion.

Robert (06:07.81)
There’s a lot of cognitive architecture being built though at that time. Like really rapid brain growth in the neocortex.

Debra (06:12.517)
Mm-hmm.

Debra (06:19.363)
And so they’re developing language, but they’re not able to speak it? Is that what it is?

Robert (06:25.238)
Yes, early on the baby’s brain is listening more than anything. It’s observing, it’s paying attention. And while they’re paying attention, of course, the neurons are exploding in the brain and just going crazy, creating all kinds of connections with each, the neurons are creating all kinds of connections more than

than is needed actually. And so there’s this proliferation of neuron kind of networks that are going to come in handy later on. But at this stage, it’s primarily the emotional experience that is leading the…

process of engaging with the world so that the baby feels the world senses the care the love the attention that it’s receiving or like it lack of and It is considered a sensitive period this early period because if the child doesn’t get what they need as far as nourishment attention love

Debra (07:32.621)
or lack of.

Robert (07:50.927)
attachment. Yes. All these things. The brain finds it difficult to catch up later if it doesn’t receive it in this early stage.

Debra (07:52.282)
warmth.

bonding with the mother or her parent.

Debra (08:03.109)
Hmm.

Debra (08:06.937)
You know, when you, I first met you when you worked with children on the spectrum of autism and neurodivergent, I guess the term is now, but you had mentioned that there’s certain state milestones and if the child misses them, such as speaking, that it’s hard to catch up later. So it’s these, these stages are so critical for us. And so, but we also think, you know, in our young in way, we’re not the ego. we’re, these are,

the way the ego develops, right? The sense of I, this mind body. So we’re gonna go on later to show that this doesn’t doom you. So those of you thinking my mother abandoned me, left me at the fire, gave me up for adoption, all those things, or was never loving to me, you’re not doomed for life either. But you kind of have an understanding of what is happening. So that…

Robert (09:01.282)
Yeah, the research that I’m talking about is like really severe deficits, know, where babies are abandoned and, you know, nobody holds them and nobody cradles them, those kind of things, those kind of situations. Yeah.

Debra (09:07.534)
Yeah, yeah.

Debra (09:15.951)
But usually we have someone in our life. if our mother wasn’t around, the grandmother was there. When I talked to clients, I asked them, who was the loving figure in your life? And they would always say like my grandmother or my aunt or even my nanny was really warm and she kind of balanced it out. So we always feel like we’re always provided with that in some form. Maybe it’s a teacher, the kindergarten teacher who gives you love for the first time, maybe later on. Or sibling.

Robert (09:30.296)
Mm-hmm.

Robert (09:38.573)
Yeah.

Robert (09:42.063)
Yeah, those definite studies, what they showed me was how the high fidelity of the system, how attuned it is to what it is receiving from the environment. It’s like taking notes on everything. And it makes sense.

Debra (10:05.293)
And you see the baby, like, they’re just like, not knowing what’s going on. But they do know what’s going on. We were at restaurant yesterday. And I said, look at that baby. was probably like three months old. And it was looking around, taking everything in and smiling. And you just know, like, it’s absorbing and gathering data. Yeah. So so with birth to two, they don’t know how to label an emotion yet.

Robert (10:24.478)
It’s work in the room, absolutely.

Debra (10:35.215)
Like they don’t have that ability to give it a name. So they don’t feel I am sad or I’m afraid. They just have this felt sense of.

Robert (10:46.402)
That’s right.

Debra (10:48.131)
And a feeling of something’s wrong, but they don’t know what it is. And it’s a survival technique. It’s a survival system for them. Because if we don’t feel safe, we are stay on alert. I mean, it’s like any animal like would would be worried a little bit if their mother leaves the pack to go, you know, gather food for the young, you know, and then you’re with your siblings in the cave by yourself. I’m sure there was some element of that. And then

the mother, then the mother comes back and then there’s this warmth again.

Robert (11:19.768)
Yes. And my sense is that we need the whole range of emotions. In other words, it’s not about protecting us and shielding us from emotion, but it’s about exposing us to these powerful emotions so that our brain kind of gets the code, right? What kind of world am I going to experience and how can I be ready for that? And so

Debra (11:26.307)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Robert (11:49.487)
A lot of it is transmitted from the mother or the caregiver. The caregiver’s emotional state is transmitted to the child through facial gestures, through touch, through just the energy, right, that the presence has. And those are imprinted in the child early on. And of course, from our perspective, from the young-end perspective,

they are imprinted in the personal unconscious, meaning that most of us don’t remember those experiences, yet they’re deeply ingrained in our psyche.

Debra (12:29.893)
So biologically, if we think about it, if we’re meant to feel all the range of emotions, so this idea that you’re going to have the perfect child cushioned from any negativity is actually not helpful for the child. And so like not being there to feed them, being uncomfortable in the diaper, being hungry, like all these these feeling, am I going to get fed? Those are all developing these parts of our brain and emotional life.

Robert (12:40.099)
Right.

Debra (12:57.641)
And I remember reading Freud, the pleasure principle. And what I thought was fascinating was the game of peekaboo that we all play, almost like we even play these games with children to develop those things. And it’s not even, it’s just something everyone does. And why do we play that game? Cause they smile when you play it. Well, he said it’s because it’s, he used the term the joyful return. So when the, the, hide your face,

And then you come back, the baby feels even happier if you just stayed just there all the time. So there was like a kind of withdrawal of the love and then pulling it back. And there’s that joy that so it stimulates joy in the child and how to feel joy. And so we can’t feel joy without the opposite emotion. So it’s almost like we’re here in the early life to kind of feel the duality.

right of the the emotions and the duality of life and we’re starting to find sense in it. But if everything was laid out to us, and we never felt anything bad, I thought we’d be prepared for the world. And so

Robert (14:08.92)
That’s a good example, yeah, exactly. We need to be prepared for the world.

Debra (14:14.853)
And so this imprint, like you said, is in the early, the personal unconscious. We don’t have words for it yet. And we’re just, that’s why when we react sometimes irrationally to something where it feels life threatening, but it’s not, it comes from that first initial two years where we didn’t have words for it. And then we’re trying to piece together why I feel afraid. So let’s go to two to four, which I think is, this is fascinating from a young perspective.

Robert (14:25.646)
Hmm.

Robert (14:37.709)
Yeah.

Debra (14:43.299)
is two to four is when the ego is born, really, really comes online. So before that, I think you had mentioned in other podcasts and other teachings that the child feels one with everything, pretty much. They feel like the world is, they are the world. They’re part of the world. They’re very connected to everything. And then at two, it’s like the individual self is beginning to form, not fully formed, but beginning to form.

Robert (15:11.704)
Yeah, that sense of I, that sense of agency that I, through this body, can take action and change the world around me, manipulate objects, you know, that throwing of the toy and having somebody pick it up and return it to you. That’s…

Debra (15:14.021)
Mm-hmm.

Debra (15:32.803)
Because like power is a power test, right? Do I have the power to get someone to do something for me? Is that what it is?

Robert (15:35.754)
It’s a it’s yeah

Yeah, it has an element of that and that’s agency, meaning that you start to feel your oats, that you can do things, you can affect the environment. You’re not just a passive bystander waiting for things to come to you or people to bring you things. You can start to act upon your environment directly.

Debra (16:05.923)
And so that starts with learning to, I mean, it happens younger, like one or one years old is when we start to potty train and learn to control a little bit of our bodily functions and we can eat, you know, we were to control of our food now because we could start eating on our own. So we’re not just fed like, you know, like a blob. So it’s like, it’s not like a cutoff and starts, it’s like a gradation. We like those kinds of things prepare us for that ego to come online.

And they seem so basic, but they are like, I can go to the bathroom by myself. I can choose what I eat. I can shut my mouth now and not have the broccoli that my mother’s trying to feed me. So, and then that’s where they call it the terrible twos a lot because of that. They start to say no a lot. I remember my, niece and nephews, you know, like when they were two, they were like, do you want to do this? No. Do you want to do this? No. It was like, do you say, do you say yes to anything? No.

Robert (16:59.362)
Hmm.

Robert (17:03.17)
Well, parents will tell you there are easy babies and there are difficult babies. Yeah, and some babies are just kind of there. They’re comfortable and they just go along with whatever’s happening and others are always resisting, wanting to do their own thing, complaining, et cetera, et

Debra (17:03.363)
What is that about? What is that about?

Debra (17:11.461)
Hmm, I think that was a difficult one.

Robert (17:32.471)
That’s the beginning of temperament. we can, we started to get the picture that these early experiences, even from day one, are the foundation of personality. And of course, we were born already with these, a lot of these tendencies and traits that they’re innate in us, genetically and epigenetically.

Debra (17:34.533)
Hmm.

Robert (18:00.95)
And therefore we’re building upon something that’s built in. But still the environment is important because the environment is what stimulates the growth or lack of growth in these particular areas. So we might have the genes for brilliance and genius, but if the environment doesn’t stimulate those genes to turn on.

and it doesn’t stimulate the brain to wire itself for genius, then that genius is not expressed. So these are called the enriched environments in clinical or experimental psychology. Enriched environments meaning where there’s a lot of stimulation or potential stimulation that is aimed at growth. These are super important.

Debra (18:40.899)
And then-

Debra (18:59.811)
Now as a psychologist, child psychologist, I have to ask this question. We go to restaurants all the time. We see toddlers two to four on their iPads, constantly on electronics. Does that itself, it’s not conducive to development because in the age two to four, it says that it’s active. The emotions come visible through action.

So if the child is just like in their head or playing a game, they’re not really acting in the world like playing and then play, you know, moving their body and being defiant or running away. They’re just kind of like numbing themselves to the electronic. And I know a lot of parents are against it, which is great or limited electronic time. But I would think that children would lack.

that kind of feedback from the environment because they’re not really in the environment. They’re in like their own little world. What do you think?

Robert (20:03.49)
Yeah, there’s actually new research coming out about this. And I mean, if you think about what is our human nature about, it’s very social. We’re social creatures. And if we’re not learning how to enact a social interaction with another kid or another adult,

we’re not doing our jobs. essence, our brain, which is designed for social interaction, is not going to receive the environmental stimulus to develop those skills. And so I imagine these kids that spend a lot of time on screens will not have the social acuity that most of us grew up with where we’re able to…

Debra (20:56.559)
social intelligence, like, would you say?

Robert (21:00.03)
Yeah, emotional intelligence. is what social. Yeah. Yeah, because, well, if you think about social interactions, it’s all about emotion, right? It’s kind of, is this a friendly person? Is this a bully? Is this somebody I can negotiate with? We do that intuitively, and we’re really good at it as human beings. We have the

Debra (21:01.935)
Well, social I was thinking intelligence. Well, emotional intelligence around being social.

Robert (21:28.716)
the wetware, which is the brain structure to do that. But if the stimulus is not there in the environment, then we don’t get to develop those skills and whatever we don’t use, we lose.

Debra (21:43.352)
And so what do you think about two to four when they get in trouble and the parent says, time out, what is your position on that? I know controversy, like, you know, the kid what you standing up for yourself is wrong. Is that, does that impact the child psychologically?

Robert (22:03.328)
Everything impacts the child psychologically. But the children want structure, even though they might resist it, right? It might be their nature to resist it, but they want and need structure because it starts to give them a sense of security. That if I, right, I’m just a kid. If they’re letting me do whatever I want, my God, this is a dangerous situation.

Debra (22:10.981)
Hmm.

Debra (22:23.013)
That is really.

Debra (22:32.387)
like paint on the walls and the parents just like, isn’t she cute? I’ll just paint the wall over or making a mess of the living room. And it’s like, sure, you know, it’s, she’s a child. yeah.

Robert (22:34.252)
Yeah.

Robert (22:41.102)
or hit other kids or that kind of stuff. If that’s not, if there are no consequences for those things, then the child starts to get a little anxious, even though they might appear to be enjoying it or having a great time. But the anxiety is a little bit deeper, right? That, my God, there are no guardrails here and I’m free to do whatever I want.

That’s kind of a warning sign.

Debra (23:12.869)
So up until two, it’s really about safety and regulating your emotion and figuring out those balance between joy and pain and good and bad and pleasure and pain. And two to four is about naming and expressing. So we start to, as a toddler, try to express ourselves.

and name things and understand the world where language is just even though we’re speaking probably in full sentences, it’s connecting that emotion with the language. It’s like starting to build the building blocks of their template.

Robert (23:52.601)
That’s right. That’s right. So a kid that feels insecure might play the role of a rescuer. They’re starting to kind of their mind, their psyche is starting to try to balance that insecurity out through action.

Debra (24:00.518)
Hmm.

Debra (24:14.157)
And so it’s very active. It’s very about acting out and being in action. And that’s why I think the electronics inhibit that ability that you’re not taking action in the world. Maybe you’re taking action on a screen with imaginary characters, but I don’t know if that really helps. When you’re not interacting with fake people, you’re interacting with real people with real emotions and real consequences to your actions. And to form that is very, very important.

Robert (24:42.286)
Yeah, you mentioned parents that limit screen time, my sense is those are very few. Most parents assume that technology is good for the kid. You know, it’s just like something that

Debra (24:49.262)
Hmm

Debra (24:55.127)
It’s good for them. don’t have to. It keeps the kid entertained. Especially if they’re busy and they’re working and they’re, you know, busy professional and they’re like, the kid needs constant attention at that age. They give them a iPad and let them play their game or listen to music or watch videos and watch the Disney movie 40 times.

Robert (24:57.964)
Exactly.

Robert (25:11.362)
Yeah, because it also appears that they’re, yet it appears that they’re learning, right? Because they’re looking at the screen just like a person working on a computer essentially. the parents assume, well, they’re learning, right? They’re interacting and they’re learning how to press the keys and all that stuff, which they assume will prepare them for school and for work. But that’s…

That’s a simplified understanding of what this technology is. We have to consider that the technology, especially social media, there are psychologists kind of advising the companies on how to get us addicted to social media. And therefore, that’s what the baby or the child is learning is they’re getting addicted to this.

these screens, but not necessarily for the purposes of learning or developing social skills.

Debra (26:17.901)
And social skills are really important, especially if someone’s an only child or you don’t live, you don’t have children around for them to play with. And I think we are getting isolated that way because parents are busy and do we have time for a play date and all those things. So very interesting. So birth to two, we’re just emotional beings learning our emotions. And again, we have a whole range of emotions that we’re born with or our psyche is

has the ability to feel. So we’re not receiving emotions from our family. Like they’re not implanting emotions in us. your mother didn’t create fear in you or your mother didn’t create anxiety in you. You had anxiety and it just stimulated it, but they were all there. And it’s also good to have all emotions, not just the nice ones and happy ones. You wanna have a balance so you could see the distinction and navigate life.

And then the second phase two to four is where we start to take action and we learn that we have a little agency. And so our emotional life starts to come on in a more of an active way of acting out or saying, no, we’re trying to do something. I mean, I see kids two to four get very frustrated when they can’t do something. You know, they’re trying to play with a toy and it’s not working and they just throw it and they’re just mad. That’s they don’t know how to say, I feel frustrated or I feel

insecure or I feel incapable or incompetent, they just are still emotional at that point. But they’re starting to see this little sense of I that it’s very personal now. Their their actions are connected to their identity a little bit.

Robert (28:05.408)
And here’s the important piece for all of us to understand that these early experiences with emotion form the foundation of our personality that will stay with us for the rest of our lives unless we actively do inner work, the exploration of the personal unconscious and make changes

If we want to. If you’re happy and you’re saying, you know, I, my emotional life is perfect. I create the kind of relationships that I want. I’m happy with my life always, or in general, I don’t need to do any, any personal work. Great. But most of us, let’s say our, our emotional life training.

early on was not ideal. As life always throws us a curve ball. And so it’s a good idea to be able to access those deeper layers of the unconscious mind so that we can alter them or make changes in a conscious way now. And this ability from our perspective really in Western psychology anyway only can be done through the Jungian model.

No other psychology really goes that deep to where we can alter them or really make deep changes. There are behavior modification models where you try to kind of augment or create alternatives to these patterns.

Debra (29:50.799)
create boundaries or speak up and you’re Yeah.

Robert (29:54.319)
or attachment theories where you try to change your emotional attachment patterns. Those are good, but what we’ve seen the power of this depth psychology, the Jungian depth psychology where you’re really able to transform those deep imprints. For example, if somebody didn’t get the sense that it’s a safe world for me, that I can be comfortable in and

it’s got my back, I’m going to be supported because of those early experiences. Let’s say that the mother wasn’t being, wasn’t able for some reason to attend to the baby in a proper way. Perhaps the child got the message that this is an unsafe world that’s not going to fulfill my needs. That, that imprint is laid down unconsciously.

So the person doesn’t even, yeah, there’s no words to it.

Debra (30:53.215)
doesn’t have words to it either, right? You were saying that early on, it’s not like you can say I’m, I’m safe in the world and use cognitive models to change that.

Robert (31:04.738)
The cognitive models in that situation would only stay on the surface and would only kick in once the anxiety of I’m not safe would kick in. And therefore it wouldn’t really change the foundational pattern. The foundational pattern is emotional and it’s imprinted in this intuitive emotional.

Debra (31:09.605)
Mm-hmm.

Debra (31:29.189)
So recently, one last thing I’ll say before we go, maybe a month or two ago, Oprah had this woman on, this couple people that are like letting go of their parents or cutting off contact with their parents because they’re emotionally immature, emotionally immature parent. in Jungian terms, the way we look at it is, first of all, we’re all emotionally immature on some level.

because it’s not a diagnosis, it’s actually how we are, unless we evolve from it and we do the inner work, we are going to react to life in an immature way under four. That’s what you’re saying. And so if you feel that way, I think the antidote to that is asking yourself, where am I being emotionally immature? Where am I? And not to blame yourself and not to get your parent off the hook, whatever they did.

But Jungian work helps us ask the question, well, it’s in me too, if I’m having this experience with this other person, that there’s a corresponding element in me. And that’s the only way we can really be free instead of building walls against people that are toxic or mean or narcissists and all that stuff. Like, let me build a wall around these people. The real power comes from standing in the presence of anyone and not being afraid.

And the only way we can do that is to come to terms with our own, these deep, immature, very young formed emotions that are core to us. And, and we do that through the process of individuation. Like you said, it’s not about just, it’s not about pounding pillows and, scream primal screaming and all those things. It’s about really bringing on that cognitive, awareness, the pure awareness beyond just thinking through it.

but having like a more awareness beyond the ego. So these emotions that are formed, this immature kind of reactive patterns are ego, but we’re not the ego. And we’re gonna go into that in the next episode where we’re gonna talk about really the ego really truly forming four to nine and what happens there and then how the young and model can really help you. But yeah, we’re all kind of emotionally immature. We should all accept it.

Debra (33:52.294)
And so project it and then ask ourselves, can we be more in touch with all the range of our emotions without falling apart, without needing to fix them, without needing to compensate or run from them? I mean, that’s really, we don’t want emotions to have that much power over us like it did in those early years.

Robert (34:02.06)
Yeah.

Robert (34:14.306)
Yeah, and one last thing about the four to six stage of development, play is really the key.

Debra (34:23.343)
We’re going to do that in the next episode. Yes. So yeah, we’re going to get into play and we’ll also get into the self-image that starts to form from six to nine and the persona. So juicy topics coming up. We will see you next week. I hope you enjoy this. Please comment or like our video or send us a note. Tell us what you liked, what you want to know more of. We’d love to hear.

And stay tuned for our next episode next week. Take care.

Robert (34:54.414)
See you soon.