Mid-Life Identity Crisis Who Are You Beyond the Ego

Episode Transcript

00:00 What is an identity crisis in midlife?

Debra (00:01) Hello, everyone. Welcome back to Jung on Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.

Dr. Rob (00:05) I’m Dr. Rob. Welcome to the show.

Debra (00:08) We have an exciting new topic today. We’re talking about identity when we’re transitioning jobs, transitioning relationships, transitioning in life, hitting those milestones, some people might call it the midlife crisis, and some people call it an identity crisis. That’s what we’ll talk about today. But before we begin, really quick, do us a favor and subscribe to our channel if you’re watching us on YouTube, and if you’re watching or listening to us on one of the podcast services, don’t forget to subscribe. We really appreciate it. So, I remember when people talk about midlife, and they’re having a midlife. A lot of people call it the identity crisis. So I wanted to talk about what is identity and start off with that, and what happens to us around middle life after 30. Yeah, it’s an interesting idea.

Dr. Rob (01:00) Right now, we’re in a huge period of rapid transition, rapid change. That’s an understatement, really. It seems like everything changes in a couple of months. So it’s an amazing journey. This was actually predicted back in the 70s by a book called Future Shock. The idea of future shock, the thesis was simply that rapid change is something different that humans now have to face. In other words, we’re used to change. We’re designed for change, but the speed of the change is what’s new.

Debra (01:50) Well, even now, and I know everyone has their peccadillos with AI, love it or hate it. I remember I was doing something in Claude like a month ago, and it didn’t have the capability. And now, a couple weeks later, it has this capability. And so, if it’s happening at that rapid pace, what is happening? And so, we have a lot of outer changes, technological mostly, but also governmental. A lot of political changes. People are having lots of anxiety about polarization and just change too much economic change, and so when we’re going through this outer change, we also every one of us goes through some kind of crisis within. The world is almost like another living microcosm of like a being, right? That has that society has its own identity that starts to shift, and so on an individual level, we also go through that metamorphosis.

Dr. Rob (02:49) Absolutely, and we can see from that perspective then that identity is one of the things that is threatened by rapid change.

Debra (03:02) Especially the people that say I’m going to be replaced by AI. My job is going to be replaced, and there are some skills that AI can do faster than a human now. And so, how is that working? And people are like nervous. When is it going to come for them? Basically, like when you say that for most of us as human beings, we don’t really like change. Like we thrive on an ego level, we thrive on consistency and predictability.

Dr. Rob (03:29) Yes. At the same time, we are explorers. That’s our nature. We’re always seeking something new and opening up all these Pandora’s boxes. Yeah. So we have both. So, back to identity. Freud, in his wisdom, identified three major insults or embarrassments to the human narcissistic tendency. He said, first, Copernicus showed us that we are not the center of the universe, right? In medieval times.

Debra (04:09) I remember when I realized that wasn’t the center.

Dr. Rob (04:11) Right? Life kind of puts you in your place. He says, then Darwin comes along and shows us that we are simply another animal, another species of animal. We’re not this special creation that is described in the Bible, and we were okay with that. We managed, he says. But then he himself came along and pointed out that there’s a powerful unconscious mind at play in everything we do; that we are not the masters of our domain, of our mind, of our choices.

Debra (04:49) Right. Exactly. That’s another.

Dr. Rob (04:52) There’s a deeper layer that’s playing into the choices that we make, the fears that we have, the dreams. That we dream, and of course now AI is kind of bringing another one to the forefront, meaning that maybe we’re not the only intelligence in the universe. There’s other kinds of intelligences.

Debra (05:16) Does AI become self-actualized?

05:20 What is identity? The ego, the persona and the “I”

Dr. Rob (05:20) Yeah. So when we talk about identity,

Debra (05:22) When we say identity, as a typical person would think about identity, we think of it as our personality, our the like Jung would call it the persona, the things that we attribute to ourselves, our history, our accolades, what our accomplishments, who we surround ourselves with, who loves us, who doesn’t love us, what, how much money we make, what’s our credit score, what degrees, letters after our name, and like how like enmeshed we are with our family. Are we part of a bigger social group? Are we isolated? All that is typical. What people think of as identity, yeah, and that way, like you said, on the conscious level, that we it’s like what we consciously see and remember about ourselves.

Dr. Rob (06:13) Yes, and for most people, it feels self-evident that that’s who they are. That they are the things that they do, the things they say, the way they behave, their language, their identity in society. But as soon as we start to examine that proposition, we find it doesn’t really hold water. First of all, there is no I in the brain, if we dissect the brain, we don’t find a special part that says “I.” This is me, right at the core of our experience. The only physical part that we can detect is our body of “I,” like what the what we identify as “I,” like me and you, we’re separated by appear to be separated by our bodies. Yes. Now, what’s happening biologically and psychologically is that the presence of the body, because it’s related or relating to other objects or around it in the environment, then begins to fixate on this idea that there is an I, and that I is kind of inside the body, inside the brain somewhere, or perhaps in the heart. Or some cultures have it differently. Like we’re the carriers of the I.

Debra (07:38) Yeah, like it’s inside, like our soul, and the identification with this individual soul and I in this body.

Dr. Rob (07:47) Right. That the body, the soul, kind of the awareness or the consciousness, as Eastern philosophy would say, is inhabiting the body. When consciousness exits the body, we see that oh, there’s nothing there except the body. But anyway, the identity, just from simple kind of Western psychology, a lot of people are amazed to find out that we don’t really have a good definition of what that I is, even though we can identify it as ego and label it as ego. There seems to be no parameters to it, and no real definition that can really explain what are we talking about when we say I, right?

Debra (08:33) Because it changes. So when you’re with your family, your personality, your tendencies, your behaviors might be very different than when you’re in the a boardroom, and the you could be your family joking around, telling dirty jokes and cursing, and then you’re in boardroom and you’re like all professional and having that different demeanor. And then who are you? Are you the VP of marketing or are you the little sister in the family that gets teased and jokes around, and so we and then we have a relationship with our partners, relate dating relationships and romantic relationships, and then as a mother or father to the child, we’re different. So who are who’s the real us? Please stand up, right? Who is the real me? And so it’s. But it’s what’s constant is this kind of function, like you said. The I is a function; it’s not a thing. So it’s a function that keeps us in like a consistent identity that we can navigate the world. And so Jung had said that it’s really important that we have an individual identity. If we don’t growing up, it’s like a mental illness. Like people with schizophrenia, they have a scattered identity, and there’s a lot of problems that can happen.

Dr. Rob (09:55) Well, one of the biggest clues comes from Eastern philosophy. They call the function that you’re describing the I-maker. In other words, the brain has a function, and one of its main objectives is to create the sense of I. I mean, mine for our functioning. Again, Jung said the problem is that we over-identify with that sense of I, we start to think that’s who I really am, or that’s the totality of who I am. That identification with that I, with the ego, begins to be our home base. We start to think, what else is there? Right? It’s I, and I know myself, and I know my experience, and I know who I am. I have all these things that I identify with, but it’s not that easy. Again, because once we start self-examination or self-inquiry, as it’s called in philosophy, we start to see that I again does not really exist in any meaningful, solid way. It exists as function. It emerges. It’s an emergent property of being aware, being alive, but it’s not a real entity in a sense. It’s not a real entity,

11:22 How is our identity formed?

Debra (11:22) And that is where we’ll end up today on this session about identity. But we want to start with before we start transcending the I and not thinking it’s real. We start with well, how did our identity get developed? And so early in life, we have this adaptive quality that helps us conform to our family, to what works in our family. We get also identity, personality traits from our DNA. Genetically, we are genetically predisposed to be more free and open. We more creative. Be more logical. Be more emotional. All those things kind of are pre-baked in us as we’re a human biological being, and then we develop identities based on what the world expects of us. Yeah, we’re expected to get a job, get a steady job, get a steady paycheck, make sure you have money in the bank. Earn a good living. Get a house or a place to live. Get a car. Nice car. Get a family. Be a good person. Maybe go to your church or synagogue or whatever every week and be a part of a community and all those expectations society expects you to be a good person, be a good citizen, all those things, and so we build these identities not really out of choice. We build them out of what the world is telling us we should be, and what our parents tell us what we should be, but not overtly. They tell us through demonstration. They we watch them and we look at them and say, “Ooh, that’s what power is. That’s a good that’s what a kind person is.” And we learn from that as well. And then also our siblings define our identities too. Because have you ever noticed that there’s no two identical identities in the siblings, and that everyone takes a different role. So sometimes, when someone has one role, like the golden child, there can’t be two golden children. There has to be one that is the golden child. So that position has been taken, and the other siblings take on different roles to counter and balance in the system of the family. So all these things come into play to define who we are without our permission, without our real conscious say, and then we just believe that that’s who we are, and that’s just the way we are, and we can’t change. It’s just the way we are. And so when we hit midlife, it doesn’t fit anymore. Like many of the time, this is where we start to question that song by, I forgot the name of the band, but “Is this my beautiful wife? Is this my beautiful house? What? How did I get here?” We start asking questions, and that’s where you said the self-inquiry comes in: Is who am I, and why am I not even happy with the things that the world told me would make me happy? I have the car. I have the house. I have the job. I have the success. I have the marriage, but I feel there’s an emptiness inside.

Dr. Rob (14:28) Yeah, and so that’s the issue with this over-identification with the ego or the I-maker because it is kind of a software program that helps us deal with the world, but it emphasizes stability and predictability. So rapid change immediately threatens that existence of the I.

Debra (14:55) And do you think in rapid change that we tend to go more toward consistency than ever, we feel like afraid to take risks, afraid to make more changes because we want to find that almost like that raft in the middle of the storm, hanging to hang on to.

Dr. Rob (15:13) Yeah, it’s a double-edged sword because even if you want to change, even positive change, what we would call a promotion or a marriage or something amazing in your life is threatening to that sense of I, that self sense of identity, the I, ego or persona, as Jung called it, and the persona is kind of more what we show to people and represent ourselves as

Debra (15:41) Our representative. So let me ask you this: If the identity is so rigid, why do we, and we know it’s constrictive, and we want to change? Why do we hang on to it? Like, why is it so hard to just be different or start a new career, or leave your marriage and try something new. Why is it so hard?

Dr. Rob (16:09) Yeah. So the ego, we can say the I has a lot of defense mechanisms to protect itself and to remain stable, because you can imagine, if we were easily thrown off our balance as our sense of I, or our sense of I was easily disrupted, it would be very chaotic for us. We would not be able to function. So we have a lot of defenses in place to keep that I safe, keep it a kind of stable, a stable sense of self. Like you said, mental health. That’s one of the definitions that the person kind of loses their sense of self. Therefore, they cannot really test reality.

Debra (16:55) Yeah, we’ve seen people over the years that are kind of chameleons, and they go with the crowd more. They when they ask them, “What do you want?” I don’t know, and they’re really kind of they haven’t cultivated their own sense of identity. And I think a lot of that comes from, I believe, and you can disagree with me or not, but I think we have to create something in our life that we’ve own, like we have to have some like ability to graduate college or have a career or find a relationship, establish something in our life like that would seem like an earthly success, so we can have a sense of like kind of power in the world, and we can create something in the world in some way. Like I created that, and then people that haven’t yet or feel like they’re powerless. It’s almost like there’s no I to like own the power, and so it is dissipated, and they get power through other people, but not they don’t know how to cultivate their own. And so I always think it’s really important if you are totally lost and feel like you haven’t created anything. That’s the first step. Is like create something that is consistent and that you can say, “I created that.” It’s a piece of art, or you got a job and you’re really good at it. Those kind of things. Nothing big. You don’t have to like change the world, but accomplish something that you can identify and feel the sense of, “I do have power to create something in my life.” I think that’s really important. But at midlife, I think we tend to have this little voice in our head or the sense that we want to do something different. The things the world promised us wasn’t satisfying, and but we’re also like afraid to change, so we’re in that kind of paradox of I want to change, but I don’t want to let go. And I talk about this in my book, like a spark from fire, the hanging onto the log, where the guy is falls off a cruise ship. I’ll speed through this story, and he’s in the middle of the dark night, and he sees this thing coming toward him, and it looks like a shark fin, and he’s bracing himself to die, and it hits him, and it’s a log, and so he’s clinging to life on this log. It’s kept him safe. The sun comes up in the morning, and there’s an island right, like a mile out, and he could swim to it probably easily, but he kept hanging onto the log, and the log was pulling him further out. The more he was swimming, and finally he just let go. He had knew he had to let go of the log to be rescued. And that whole challenge of letting go of one thing to go to something you really want, and the ego is always pulling us back. Going, no, it’s going to be too scary. It’s going to be different, like you said. The ego likes predictability and security. So when we enter that stage, we have to bring in a little bit of more Eastern philosophy into it. And so many people, when they think they hit this point, they think, “Let me just change my outer circumstances and their identity will match my new career.” Like, let’s say I left the corporate world to become a coach. Oh, now I’m a coach. That’s my identity. But that’s still just a persona. But we have to bring your insides along with you. You have to evolve internally, not just change the circumstances of your life.

20:20 What is non-attachment in Eastern philosophy?

Dr. Rob (20:20) Yeah. Just a note. We’re not saying that there is no real you. We’re simply saying that you are not the I that you hear in your head, the ego, and you’re not the persona either. But we’ll get to who you really are. But let’s say in Eastern philosophy, it really gives us practical tools. Really practical meaning anyone can use them because we all will have this. The best tool to deal with our over-identification with the ego and its attachments to the world is non-attachment. Now, a lot of people misunderstand non-attachment. It sounds like you’re saying, “I’m just letting go of everything, and I’m not going to care about anything.”

Debra (21:12) Well, people use the term detach too, which can be misleading as well. “I’m detached,” and like you don’t care.

Dr. Rob (21:20) Exactly, non-attachment does not mean you don’t care. You continue to do your degree, whatever you’re doing as a profession or as a social function, but you’re dropping the attachment to the results of your actions. Now, this is interesting because this gets into psychology and shows clearly that people thousands of years ago already understood psychology in a very deep way. They already had kind of a response to their over-attachment to external realities or to the world. So non-attachment. Then, what the psychological evidence shows, modern psychology, is that if you drop your attachment to the results, it has that action that you took has no conditioning effect on you. Now, this is a big breakthrough because conditioning is one of the most powerful elements in psychology, and in human psychology. In other words, since we’re organisms living in an environment, we’re conditioned by that environment.

Debra (22:40) Well, wouldn’t you say that has to do with the I too? Everything we do, the result is really it defines me. Am I a success or a failure? Am I loved or unloved? Right? Am I accepted or rejected? So it’s all about me anyway. So when we’re attached, we’re really it’s like a false idea. Like you can’t. It’s impossible to be attached because the ego isn’t real as a function, so it’s like an illusion that if I get this result, the I, the identity, will be better, right? Or if I if it fails, the identity will be shamed or rejected, and so the whole conditioning effect is directly related to that I.

Dr. Rob (23:20) Very much so. It’s how the I reads the results of its action. That if it wins, it tends to repeat that action again, and if it loses, it essentially says, “Don’t ever do that again.” Right?

Debra (23:37) Because I takes it personally. So if there’s a failure, I did a bad job. If I’m successful, I did a great job. And we’re trained that all the way through school. We oh look at you got an A. This is your report card. We’re graded. We go to get a job one day or go to college, and same thing. We graduated. Oh, we got that diploma. Then we go to work, and they’re like, “Here’s your performance review.” We’re always graded. We’re graded by our credit score. We’re graded by how much cash we have on hand, where we live, all that stuff. And so we’re constantly measuring ourselves for these things. And if we do, the ego is just…

Dr. Rob (24:19) Well, what’s happening is conditioning is this: It’s not a bad thing. It helps us survive. And most animals operate through operant conditioning, and they survive fine. Its limitation comes in when we start to see the world only based on what we’ve experienced, because conditioning tells us that anything I cannot predict, anything that’s out of the ordinary, out of my comfort zone, is a threat. Is a threat to me. I cannot predict it, therefore it’s the unknown, and therefore it’s taboo.

Debra (25:01) So it’s like we have blinders on, and like the horse can’t look and get distracted. The ego puts blinders on us and says, “This is the way it is. Don’t hope for more, but don’t risk, or you’re going to end up having less.” So we just kind of stay in that our little lane that we our groove.

Dr. Rob (25:20) Very much so. Yeah, it’s a very powerful force.

Debra (25:24) But non-attachment would be the key to free ourselves from that, because if we’re not attached, it’s easier to help us take a chance, right? Because if we’re not clinging to that result.

Dr. Rob (25:38) Yeah. Because the ultimate conclusion in Western psychology was that if you’re conditioned, you can change the contingencies, as they’re called, meaning the environment. You can mess with it, right? Like maybe you say, rearrange the furniture a bit, and you start to get slightly different results. But that’s not freedom, according to Western psychology. Skinner himself, the main proponent of behaviorism, said we’re pretty much trapped by conditioning, by our environments, and all we can do is rearrange the furniture a bit. Eastern philosophy said, no, we have total freedom in the simple mechanism if we simply drop our attachment to the results of our actions. Now it doesn’t mean we drop the action. We continue to be passionate, have plans about our actions. We’re simply trusting in that whatever results we get, we’re okay with them. We simply take them as neutral information to continue to do our best job, our best action.

Debra (26:57) Well, if you think about conditioning, it’ll always be there, but we can almost expand our capacity in life by taking trial and error. You could see, they talk about the guy who ran the mile and broke that record. It keeps getting broken. So there is a capacity to expand. Of course, there’s capacity really transcend, but even on a little scale, we can change our capacity, like for risk. And for me, one of the greatest lessons from Eastern philosophy is that how to deal with a result that is bad, because we’re so terrified of it. And if we are okay with oh that failure this thing didn’t work, but we look at it as information and feedback so we can make another choice and perfect and align. Then no result is bad because everything gives you information, and so you have okay celebrate that worked. This didn’t work, but it’s going to give me one step closer to what I want, and so instead of just only hanging on to the good goal and terrified of the bad goal, we start to be more open. And this is where creativity comes in too, because no artist can create great art if they’re trying to get art that everyone loves. They have to let go of attachment, and they almost let the brush, or the sculptor, or the hands move. The musicians, they let something greater than themselves drive a little bit and play a little bit. And I think that’s really wonderful. Also, too, I mean, this is how science works. They try different tests and research and expand and challenge the status quo, and so if we look at our life instead of hanging on to survival, saying let’s make it a research project, let’s see what I can do. I remember when I left the corporate world, this thought came to my mind. Everyone was like, “Oh, Deb, we’re sorry you got laid off.” Blah blah blah, and I said, “I’m going to go and see what I’m made of,” because I’ve been putting off doing what I love for a long time, and it’s amazing that when you just give yourself permission to see what you’re made of, that the universe is like, look how wonderful you are, look how creative you are, look how powerful you are, look how much potential you have, and we just have to give ourselves that permission and be willing to take that risk to do that, and that’s the beauty of the practice of non-attachment. We use everything that comes up for our growth, and instead of just clinging to only the good times.

Dr. Rob (29:33) And it really helps with rapid change because if you’re not attached, you’re flexible, you’re open. You have that beginner’s mind, where you’re able to see opportunities, possibilities in everything. Whereas when you’re when you’re fixated on a certain outcome of your actions, it’s locking you in anything that doesn’t look like your intention, you consider it a failure, and therefore it discourages you. It throws you off your game. It just lowers your self-esteem. All those things. So, non-attachment very powerful tool. Now, like we were saying, we’re not saying there is no you. There’s actually a you. That’s the good news, but it’s not the you that you think you are. It’s not your persona. It’s not your identity. It’s not your work, your job, your culture. All these things,

Debra (30:34) Your talents.

30:35 Who are you beyond the ego? Jung’s Self and pure awareness

Dr. Rob (30:35) Yes, in the Jungian sense, he says the totality of who you are, meaning all the psyche, both conscious, unconscious, collective unconscious, and beyond. He says the totality of the psyche is you. That’s who the Self or yourself, your true Self, is. The total, kind of center.

Debra (31:05) Like you’re not just this little personality. You’re having an individual experience of the greater Self. And so, do you want to talk the difference between the ego and that big Self? Some people call it the higher self, or Jung called it the Self. In Eastern philosophy, they called it the Self with the big S.

Dr. Rob (31:25) Right.

Debra (31:26) What would you say the difference is?

Dr. Rob (31:27) Yeah. So we can divide our life into three major states of awareness: our waking state, which is right now. Hopefully, we haven’t put you to sleep, and at the center of your waking life is the I, that’s the ego. It’s that little voice that you hear that’s narrating what you’re doing or what you need to do or what you forgot, all that stuff. But that’s not you. Keep in mind, it’s an important part of our…

Debra (31:58) It’s a part of the whole, right?

Dr. Rob (32:01) Yeah, it’s part of it exactly, but it’s a center, Jung says, of our conscious waking mind. The dreaming mind then is a separate state of mind. We go into this almost like a comatose state. Our muscles are actually paralyzed, and we hallucinate entire lives, entire movies, entire stories, characters, cities, etc. All while we’re asleep, while our body is in a passive state, barely moves when we’re dreaming. So that that’s the kind of the personal unconscious, or a lot of the dreams, essentially are addressing our personal understanding of ourselves.

Debra (32:52) And when you say the dreaming state, it could be also when we do active imagination and we’re exploring our imagination, could be even though it’s conscious, we’re tapping into touching a little bit of it, not as much as in sleep, where it’s like that raw experience to the unconscious. But even in the dream, we have there’s a part of us that remembers the dream.

Dr. Rob (33:10) Yes, and in dreaming, we’re entering…

Debra (33:16) There’s an identity in the dream.

Dr. Rob (33:18) Yeah, we’re entering this subtle mind-body, and the subtle mind-body is like it looks like this body, but it’s subtle, meaning it can go through walls and fly and everything like we do in dreams, right? Nothing is really constricting us that much in the dreams. So anyway, the third state of mind is deep, and deep sleep we know is a restorative state that re-energizes our whole energy system of the body, the mind-body. If we don’t get proper sleep, we start to wobble. Our mind starts to be unfocused, cannot really solve abstract problems that well.

Debra (34:06) But deep sleep, we don’t remember a dream. We’re in deep sleep, but we don’t remember, or we’re not aware of that state. But we’re aware that we were in some state where we didn’t remember. So, like we were, we’re aware of before and after, so we knew there was a state like that.

Dr. Rob (34:24) Yeah, it’s almost like we need that reset where we go back to blank. Right, the screen is blank. We’re experiencing the screen, but it’s blank. So there’s nothing there, or nothing appears to be there.

Debra (34:40) And you said that it’s like sipping the nectar of immortality. Yeah, this immortal part of ourselves,

Dr. Rob (34:47) Because it is a restorative state of mind. It was seen by wisdom traditions as a restoration through the sipping of the nectar of immortality, that it gave us new life, a new sense of vitality. Anyway, so the fourth state, which is not really us, but it is the Self, is this pure consciousness. In other words, at the base of who you are at the seat of the ground of your beingness, there is this pure awareness. That’s the real you. That’s the true Self in Eastern philosophy. That true Self cannot be destroyed. It cannot be cut. Cannot be burnt. Cannot be tainted. Anything. Nothing happens.

Debra (35:41) Absence of a personality, an identity. So it’s like a sense of being without an identity, a fixed identity, like a less rigid. I would, I always like to think of it as a lot of times in Eastern philosophy they talk about the movie screen, the white screen, and the ourselves and our life and the drama of life is like the movie playing on the screen, but then you stop the movie. The white screen is not affected by the wars or the terrible things that happen in the movie or falling in love in the movie or whatever happens. The screen remains untouched, and so we see ourselves that there’s a part of us that is untouched by life, and that’s who we really are. And then we’re just in this world having this dual drama 3D experience. Then we’re less. We if we understand that from a and this takes a while. We have to have a direct experience of it. But through a non-attachment, we start to see how flexible our identity is. That’s where we can be non-attached and we can take risks because we know that it’s just a play that we’re playing in life. We take ourselves or identities less serious and less like it’s going to destroy my reputation if I do this or that. No, you’ll survive because that’s not as real as you as this true Self.

Dr. Rob (37:00) Yeah, that’s the amazing part. The more you study the mind, the more you study what is the nature of reality. The more you understand that nothing is really as it appears to us. Even our perception, we know, and this is verifiable through neuroscience. We know what we are seeing and experiencing through our senses is not really what the world is. The package we receive is essentially very much tailored to our own conditioning, our own past experiences, and what we expect to see. It tailors it in a very individualized way for us, kind of shows us the world that we expect to see.

Debra (37:48) And it doesn’t mean we get rid of a persona; we don’t have a persona, but we take it less seriously, and we use it as a tool in the world versus a life or death. One thing about the guy who was in the raft when he finally let go of the log? What happened was he was thrown. He was in this vast ocean again, but the ocean takes care of itself. And a helicopter had come and saw him floating, and lifted him up and saved him. And I think of that as a metaphor that spirit will save you. There’s a higher force or higher nature will make sure you’re taking care of. We all think it’s going to be this terrible, destructive thing we do with our life that wrecks it forever. But the that there’s a part of us that is wiser than us, our conscious mind, and that we trust in that and trust in our deeper nature. That and again, it’s cultivating this. This isn’t something I hear it intellectually. Oh, I’m going to trust my inner nature. You have to base it. You have to practice non-attachment to kind of work, like kind of build the muscle of non-attachment, and then you’re going to notice as you step out. Wow, this thing showed up without me trying, and you’re going to understand the nature of reality, but you can’t do it if you’re clinging onto that personality, hanging on to your log. You don’t give it space to be anything else, right? To or for your life to be anything else.

Dr. Rob (39:15) Yeah, you’re right. It is a kind of cultivation. I often see it as we’re consciously cultivating the conditions for our own growth. Like we’re because we’re able to observe our own mind working. We see. Well, if I need courage, if I need love, if I need connectedness, I can consciously say, I can cultivate those things. In other words, I’m not a helpless being in that situation because I am the observer of my mind. I can understand what it needs and start to provide those things for my own. Well-being, and that kind of closes the circle, right? It’s kind of the snake biting its tail, because your own awareness is creating your life, and therefore, it can. If you identify with that pure awareness, that consciousness, then you can direct your life, direct your mind in a particular way.

Debra (40:22) I love the metaphor to close with the Gita talks about the chariot, and if you think about the chariot with the horses and the reins, and the horses are five senses. The five horses are our five senses. They’re a sense perception of the world. The reins are the mind, and if there’s no driver, we are pulled by ups and downs of the world. We’re bobbed like a cork bobbing on the ocean, powerless to the waves and the storms. But when we bring in that higher awareness, it’s like we take the reins of our mind, the driver, and we can steer it, and we do that through awareness. We become aware of how attached we are. We become aware of how we over-identify with this persona and our reputation, and ask questions. We start to be able to steer the mind and develop that mind, the higher mind. And so the think of the reins as reactive mind, and the driver is more the higher intellect that is able to be a witness, but also direct. And in that place, we can have that equanimity, that non-attachment that helps us enjoy life without feeling that life is kind of pulling us along, where we’re actually in control, and that’s such a beautiful experience. And again, just listening to this podcast, you’re not going to just have this realization, and it’s going to work. It takes time. You have to cultivate your mind. I think the biggest question you should ask yourself when you’re not getting the results you want, or where you’re afraid to make a change, is what is the biggest fear in my life? What is the root of this fear, and is it ridiculous? Like, is it about this persona that you think is going to be destroyed if that happens? And, I know so many people. Like when I was engaged before I met Rob, we I remember thinking when we broke up. That everyone’s going to judge me. Everyone’s going to think, “Oh, there’s Debbie again. She failed another relationship.” And I was so in my head of my ego, like I wanted to kind of go and make it happen so I could look like a success. I finally got married, and what I realized is everyone was supportive of me. They weren’t judging me the way I thought I was. And so when we make changes in our life, we want to leave a relationship, or we want to leave our job. You’re going to think everyone’s going to think you’re crazy, and you’re so afraid to make that change. And you realize that most people support you, and they secretly want to be as brave as you are to make a change. And sometimes other people gives them permission to do it themselves, so by you stepping out of your own, letting go of your log, you help others. Just by default, the people around you start thinking, “Wow, maybe I could leave my job too.” And look how great Judy’s doing, or Mary’s doing. Now I can do that too, and you can inspire people as well.

Dr. Rob (43:19) Absolutely, that’s what it’s about.

Debra (43:22) So it’s about non-attachment, and also, Rob, I want to ask you about meaning when it comes to meaning, because a lot of people, when they have that personal identity crisis, who am I? Why am I here? What’s the meaning of my life? How does meaning play into this as we close today.

Dr. Rob (43:42) Yes. So as we cultivate our true sense of self, really identifying with the pure awareness instead of the material objects around us or the things that we’re doing, what that gives us is a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose. Without purpose, then actions have no meaning, and we have to. As long as we have this mind-body, we have to act. You can’t take action off the table. The whole philosophy of karma yoga is the understanding of indeed, if we’re conditioned through our actions, how can I act in the world and not be conditioned and still be free, still kind of identify as the Self, as a higher Self, and so meaning through purpose? What it gives us is instead of being motivated by the external objects of the world, like the chariot being pulled by the horses that are seeking worldly experiences, we’re motivated by our higher purpose, our dharma.

Debra (44:51) Before, people thought they would get meaning from success or get meaning from being a mother or a father, having a family. Finding the right person, they think that’s the meaning of life. Buying the dream home, going on the dream vacation. But then they say that this isn’t what I was looking for. And when you say live your purpose, it’s I think the meaning of life is to know who you really are, and that self-realization it gives everything meaning, because now you’re fully awake and fully aware, and life becomes so exciting versus clinging on with the white knuckles, trying to get through and hopefully you get out okay to this really playful, deep, profound, mystical experience as we’re hanging to a rock, flinging through space. We’re this amazing being that’s alive and self-aware. That is really incredible. That it doesn’t need objects to feel meaningful. The meaning in itself is knowing who you are.

Dr. Rob (45:59) Yeah, absolutely. When we identify with the mind-body, we’re very limited essentially because we know what’s going to happen to this mind-body. We know it’s impermanent, and we know that the things of the world are impermanent also. Now we can blind ourselves to that and say, “Well, I’m not going to think about that. I’m just going to think about the moment and right now. I have the mind-body and I have things in my life and all these things.” But how long can you keep that up? We know the passage of time. No one escapes that.

Debra (46:37) You hit that milestone birthday. I can’t believe I’m 60 now. Where did life go? And then there’s this urgency to finish things up or accomplish something, or it’s like a waste. Like I’ve wasted my life, or this kind of giving up. It’s like it’s too late for me. We use that identity and age as a way to another excuse to just think that it’s too late.

Dr. Rob (47:04) Yeah, and so the absolute reality is a lot more hopeful and a lot more rich and interesting. Is that we do not end when this mind-body falls away. That’s part of the illusion of Maya. What’s called Maya, we continue. It’s an infinite journey for us. This consciousness cannot be destroyed. It does not end. Therefore, we’re going to continue, and it puts things in perspective. Then, what we’re doing here is temporary, yes, impermanent, yes. But it doesn’t have to freak us out. It doesn’t have to make us feel like there’s no point to it. On the contrary, when we engage in our duty, we participate in our life completely. But we are identifying as this pure awareness, this pure consciousness, we know that that’s who we really are.

Debra (48:06) If that’s one of the questions I have to ask, how do we identify with something that’s kind of unidentifiable?

Dr. Rob (48:16) Right.

Debra (48:17) Like, where is the pure consciousness? To me, I think that it’s a difficult concept for people. So, can I offer this as something for people that might feel like it’s too high concept? Is we think about there’s the ego mind that’s running auto on autopilot, but then there’s the witness, and so this witness isn’t all of the true Self, but it’s a reflective of that pure awareness. It’s an awareness, but it’s still within the mind-body. That’s the closest thing if you can get to at least realize that you’re watching yourself as this character in the world. But there’s still kind of a subtle body to it. There’s still a. It’s still like an individual expression because I think when people, it’s not like you just blow up and there’s no I anymore, no ego, and no you’re nothing, you’re everything and nothing. I think that’s a really hard concept for some people.

Dr. Rob (49:12) I thought you were going to mention the two birds.

Debra (49:13) Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but when we think about identity, that’s the question: is that the identity, like who are we, or as the I, like we still have an identity in a way, but it’s not as, I guess, identified as the ego. But there’s an individual consciousness within us that is reflective of the Self, right? That is not touched by the ego or the event, so it’s like the intellect is the way to think about it. It’s like a higher level of thinking or being the witness in your life. Just so for people who like, who am I if I’m not the ego and I’m nobody and I’m pure awareness? Like that that’s hard to concept for people to get. I know for me. It was maybe all of you are like Debbie’s crazy. I know what he’s talking about, but I just think there’s some people that might be like I don’t know what that is, and just thought I’d add that on because I had a hard time with that concept of that we’re not the ego, but we’re this pure awareness.

Dr. Rob (50:19) Well, you’re right that explanations do not do the job. The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao, but the metaphors really hit the mark. So, in the one of the Upanishads, it’s described in this very poetic, beautiful way. It says, “Think of a branch with two birds on it. One bird is busy tasting the sweet and sour fruits of the tree, and the other one simply observing.” Both are you. Both are you. You are that bird that’s kind of hopping around, taking action, tasting.

Debra (51:03) Ooh, this is too sour. Ooh, I like this.

Dr. Rob (51:06) This is good. This is bad. We’re experiencing the duality of the world. The other bird, though, equally us, is that pure consciousness that’s observing our life, that is really a close kind of description of really what’s going on with us. That we are this pure consciousness. We, it’s if I ask anyone, “Are you conscious? Are you aware right now?” The only answer they can give is yes. They cannot say no. So it’s one of the questions. Yeah, because if they say no, well, who’s the one that is processing that information?

Debra (51:54) But from our perspective in the body, we have an individual awareness. Because I can’t read your thoughts. Maybe some people could, but I can’t read your thought. So I try. So I like the also the metaphor of the like a spark from fire. That’s my book. That we are the fire is the pure awareness, like the pure consciousness, and inside of us is a spark, which is identical, but it’s just different in name and form. So for some people, it conceptually it might be easier to think about. There’s an individual awareness within us that’s helping us with our life, but it’s also the greatest Self to make it easier for people to put their arms and hands and mind around what these concepts are. And for me, that helps, to have that like art, like a soul or the individual like expression of the Self in multi forms. We’re all individual expressions, all connected to the same Self, having an individual, unique experience.

Dr. Rob (52:58) Yeah, it’s an amazing journey that we’re on.

Debra (53:01) There’s so much we could talk about with Eastern philosophy, but hopefully this helps with identity. And when we’re having that identity crisis, which Adler, I think he was the one who came up with that term. [Correction: the term “identity crisis” was coined by Erik Erikson.] We have, we just kind of start questioning who we are and what we’re doing and what our motivations are, and those are all part of life. A lot of people think it’s a bad thing, and this confusion, or this dullness, or lack of motivation, or doubt of what’s next, the kind of a void of motivation, all of it is great. It’s a natural stage that we should all go through. We should all question our motivations from early life and ask ourselves: Is this what we really want, and why do we want it?

Dr. Rob (53:45) Yes.

Debra (53:45) All right. Well, thank you for joining us this week for another episode of Jung on Purpose. Don’t forget to subscribe if you’re watching us on YouTube. There’s a little button in the corner. If you’re listening to us on any of the podcast services, please hit the subscribe button and watch every episode. Listen or watch whatever you like, and we will see you soon. See you next time. Take care.