Psychology of Playing It Safe: Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs

Episode Transcript

Debra Maldonado (00:00.845)
Hello everybody, I am Deborah Moldonato.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:05.282)
Doctor Robb, welcome to the program.

Debra Maldonado (00:06.713)
Welcome welcome to Jung on Purpose. we are so excited for another episode. And today we’re going to talk about some human needs. we talked about human desires an episode or two ago, but we’re going to talk about Masless hierarchy of needs. And here’s a great quote I’d like to start with. In any given moment, we have two options: to step forward into growth or to step backward.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:17.774)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (00:36.341)
into safety. And how many times have we made that choice?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:39.542)
Easy.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (00:43.756)
Yeah, that is always a choice, isn’t it? and and so Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (00:47.927)
So I want to just remind everyone to subscribe to our channel if you’re listening to us on YouTube. And if you are listening on the podcast service, please don’t forget to subscribe because we really reach more people when we have more subscribers. So thank you so much for helping us out. And Rob, so we’re talking about Maslow. And most people have heard of the Maslows Haryak over these. I would say you’re it’s not a if you’re not a stranger to personal growth. What is it really?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (01:11.181)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (01:15.145)
specifically we’ll focus on today, which is you know, really helping people understand it and apply it in a very practical way.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (01:26.55)
Yeah, so Maslow, hi his hierarchy of needs, most people have seen that little pyramid. By the way, he did not kind of develop it that way. it was a later kind of invention as a way of teaching it, perhaps, or as a way of using it. No, he didn’t. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (01:46.913)
he didn’t he didn’t r do the pyramid? Someone else did? that is funny. It’s interesting, right? People copy each other copy things and make it their own.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (01:56.673)
Yeah, and it becomes part of the culture, part of the popular culture, pop psych and so forth, pop psychology. But anyway, I’m proud to say he was he studied at the University of Wisconsin, my alma mater, and along with other people, but he was very much influenced by Carl Rogers, Rollo May, and

the humanistic school of psychology. So he had that orientation.

Debra Maldonado (02:30.391)
And for those who don’t know what the humanistic is, could you give us a little small small short little description?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (02:34.144)
Yeah. So at that time

Yeah, I’ll keep it brief. You know me. I’ll keep it brief. So in the 30s, there were two main schools of psychology: the psychoanalytics school, which grew out of Freud’s work, and Jung and others, Adler, as well as the behaviorist or the behavioral school.

Debra Maldonado (02:41.258)
Ha ha ha.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (03:05.366)
Which was really highlighted by Skinner. and the those two schools pretty much dominated. Then when the humanistic school came up, it was considered the third force, like a third element, right, to that that was also important in psychology. And Maslow.

Debra Maldonado (03:13.081)
B. F. Skinner.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (03:34.338)
was right there at the fr forefront of that school.

Debra Maldonado (03:39.095)
And so you didn’t describe humanistic, you just said it wasn’t Freudian and it wasn’t what is humanistic? I gotta keep you on track, Rob.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (03:44.147)
that’s right. Yeah, so the their idea, well, it kind of the the name kind of gives it away. They they were more focused on not only let’s say psychoanalysis was focused on the unconscious mind and so forth. behaviorism was focused on behavior, external behavior. The humanist were saying.

Debra Maldonado (03:53.006)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:12.396)
Wait a minute, we’re dealing with human beings who have emotion, sense of self, a sense of agency in the world. Why don’t we treat them that way and study that way? Study people.

Debra Maldonado (04:28.067)
So non clinical, less clinical, more less diagnosis and treatment.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:30.656)
Less clinical, more yeah, kind of giving the individual more say so is as to how they feel about what’s happening to them and taking that into account.

Debra Maldonado (04:43.447)
Hm.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (04:47.144)
And and so in in in therapy then you had models that were patient centered or client centered that they would ask the client essentially, what do you want? What do you think is going on with you? instead of telling them

Debra Maldonado (05:03.417)
Would you say it’s close to coaching?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (05:06.732)
I’d say so, yeah. y we could say that coaching evolved out of that or at least the psychological part, right, evolved out of that school, humanistic school.

Debra Maldonado (05:22.585)
So seeing like the potential in a human being, like and then positive psychology came out in the sixties. so like kind of mo following that thread. so there’s so like go ahead.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (05:32.428)
Yeah, positive positive psychology came out a little bit later actually in the eighties.

Debra Maldonado (05:38.669)
I thought it was the sixties, but okay.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (05:41.967)
yeah, I mean it depends how you define it. But the the call for a positive psychology really came from the APA itself, the American Psychological Association, to develop a more kind of a psychology of normality, if you will, of typical behavior instead of focusing always on the pathological side of.

the the behavior with a mind.

Debra Maldonado (06:16.345)
So you see this like trajectory from the psychoanalytic and the kind of like the diagnosis, treatment, behaviorist dysfunctions, and then this other school emerging or this other thread of psychology, which evolved into probably what coaching is today, where we’re, you know, we’re seeing the person’s potential, we’re not diagnosing, and

And you know, even with Jung’s work that we teach, we we teach it in a positive psychology way or humanistic way, where we see them, we’re not diagnosing clients or pay we’re not calling them patients. So let’s get back to Maslow then. So Maslow came up with these six hi levels or hierarchies of human needs. And you know, the first one’s physiological needs. We all have it.

We all want to feel have food, our body to keep us alive, basically, right? shelter, warmth, sleep, all those biological requirements we have. So very, very simple. Most of us meet those needs. in some places it’s not met, you know, or in moments of tragedy where, you know, like in Tibet where that rush of water c came through from the iceberg sheet

Going into the town, destroying all the things in its way. those people needed to get back to physiological needs. And when you the way you think about these six is that you can’t do it, it’s like the the core need has to be solved before the next one can be. So when you’re trying to survive, you’re lost in the desert, you’re out of water, you’re not thinking, I really want to find love one day, or I wonder if I’m gonna get that promotion at work. You’re really focused on that.

core physiological need. Keep me alive. That’s it, you know? and then the next one, the safety needs, I think is really interesting because it’s it’s about your security, employment, health. Do you have money in the bank? Can you pay your bills? Is there stability in your life? So there’s a lot of ways we feel safe. I’d love to focus on that and come back to that. But there’s other above that is love and belonging.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (08:35.574)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (08:40.545)
esteem needs, which is a need of confidence and achievement. And then the last one, then there’s self-actualization, the need to realize your potential. And then even higher than that is transcending your whole self. It’s not about you anymore or the ego. It’s about transcendence. So lots of levels to go to. But I would say a lot of people are still a number two. They’re still in that safety. You know, that and it it still is there and resolving it.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (09:10.434)
Well, it’s the easiest one to fall back into because anytime your employment’s is threatened or your your lack of money in the bank or income, you falls straight into this safety need.

Debra Maldonado (09:32.951)
Or your property gets taken away, someone, you know, takes over, your your your mortgage falls through or some developer comes in and, you know, you lose your house for some reason ’cause the government’s taking it over, or you know, all these things.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (09:47.311)
Well noti notice that stability is part of the safety needs. When do we feel really stable? Especially in in modern in the modern world where with rapid change, stability is the first thing that goes out the window. And therefore a lot of us are experiencing this these safety needs or the lack of safety as

as part of our physiological and safety need, meaning our mind starts to focus on that. It goes to that level.

Debra Maldonado (10:25.615)
Do you think that it’s kind of like what we talk about survival mode? like with the changes in the, you know, political climate here in the US and across the world, AI emerging, taking over jobs, economy shifting, oil prices skyrocketing. You know, it’s like everything’s kind of in flux. not not that it it never is okay, like stable, like usually it’s so there’s always an ups ups and downs.

But it seems as like in this time in history, even right after COVID or during COVID too, we had that same kind of disruption. I feel like it’s very similar. Now we’re seeing it economically. and and then also just like wanting that stability again, wanting the chaos to stop. And so this is why all of us feel this way. And we were like wondering why, like it’s not personally hurting me right now, but I think instinctively we need to feel

stable. Like we need that stability. We need that predictability. because that’s how the ego knows how to how to like keep you safe. Because if I know what’s going to happen next, then I know I can prepare for it and plan for it. We do not like to be surprised. A lot of people like surprises, but for the most harm it’s just like a birthday pro surprise or, you know, a special gift. But surprises in general are really can be really scary, you know, un unexpected change.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (11:52.375)
One of the most important elements of these first two physiological needs and safety needs is that you cannot be creative when you’re in that state of mind. in other words, as a friend of mine used to say, you cannot you’re not going to be writing poetry if you still haven’t met your physiological and safety needs. You’re gonna be thinking about how do I attain sta safety and stability.

Debra Maldonado (12:22.071)
Hmm. And for the most part, we are pretty much there’s like a default that we always fall into. So we are pretty much there is a stability. It just feels like the outside world kind of like a storm like pulls us out in in the chaos and the the constant change. And one thing I know I learned from Eastern philosophy is that the

It’s like I think in Buddhism, Pema Chodron talks about the groundlessness of our life, you know, like there’s always change, there’s always shifting. So even embracing that change will happen and not always having to hang on so tightly would be a great way to feel like feel safe in the center of the eye of the hurricane type of thing. there there are spiritual

answers to these needs and then there are their ego answers. And so what we want to do is we want to rely on the spiritual answers because the ego is just going to keep us in that safe in our patterns. So let’s talk about safety. And I I want to share something that happened to me. I never talked about this before. when I was little I was this very outgoing little girl and always bright and always like la la la happy and and

And when I was in fifth grade, I think I was 10 years old, I was walking home from school and I lived like three blocks from the school. It was a very safe neighborhood. And this man pulled up and he was exposing himself and was trying to get me to get closer in the car. And I heard my mother’s voice say, You know, there’s people that are gonna ask for directions and they’re gonna tell you to get closer because they can’t hear you and they’re gonna pull you in the car. My mother’s always she has like all these like worries for me.

But I remembered her voice and then I remembered that and I just ran away because I saw what he was doing and I was like, I don’t know what that is. I’m ten, you know. And I just remember that time. I don’t remember my fifth I know you say we have age kind of a memory block sometimes, not usually from something like that, but I remember I I sat with the policeman, I had to describe what it was, I felt very embarrassed. But then I asked my mom, I’m like, Why didn’t you ever like

Debra Maldonado (14:34.081)
Send me to therapy or have me talk to someone because that was kind of a traumatic event there. And she said, You were fine. The next day you didn’t mention it ever again and you were fine. And I just wondered it, did I suppress it? Did it affect me in some way? I’m sure it did. But I wasn’t, you know, my parents weren’t really into therapy. They didn’t do therapy themselves until later in life. My my later on, my father did, did went to a psychiatrist for anxiety, but not for like talking about your problems.

And and I was fine. So I like you, Dr. Rob, what would you say about because we do have these events in our life and sometimes we make them really big, like they they der you know, they they make us who we are. We we identify with them as this event happened and this is why I’m this way and why I’m not safe in the world. But I never felt that way. I always felt I always kind of took chances. Like I didn’t feel this, like I don’t feel like it

Dr. Rob Maldonado (15:24.278)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (15:30.913)
It made me think the world wasn’t safe. It was just that person was bad. And I know how to keep myself safe. Like I knew how to protect myself. So I don’t know. What do you think?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (15:40.953)
Well at ten we’re already fairly mature at ten years of age. and and so we have a lot of ego defenses and ego defense mechanisms. And one of them is is kind of blocking it out, like you said. Maybe we don’t need to think about it, especially because we take our cues from adults when when we’re still with our parents. And if they’re not worried about it.

Debra Maldonado (15:45.839)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (16:10.242)
We get the message it’s no big deal. Whereas if they had been really concerned about you and and kind of gave you the idea that, my God, you’re going to be damaged for the rest of your life, you might have absorbed that message and and kind of still be dealing with it or or or thinking of yourself as traumatized perhaps a lot more than than you understand right now. So

We take our cues from authority figures, especially our parents, and and and also we have pretty good ego defenses to protect us so that we it doesn’t become a big problem for us.

Debra Maldonado (16:56.173)
So maybe if I was younger, like six, it might be have more of an impact. But since I was ten, it’s kind of like my defenses had been more solid. And then I also had the smart I I was able to defend myself and not get, you know, he didn’t have power over me because I knew like I wasn’t fooled by it and I heard my mother’s voice and I knew what to do is just step back and run home and tell mom. So yeah, it’s interesting because I if I would have said

Dr. Rob Maldonado (17:16.705)
Exactly.

Debra Maldonado (17:24.045)
you know, stressed about it, I think it would be fine. But also was interesting is my father was always very protective of me, well, all of us, and very controlling. And I wonder if he, you know, kind of was more strict with me because of and and because I have this personality that was a very outgoing and like almost like, we have to protect her, you know. So the so the child gets that message that it’s not okay to be so outgoing, tone it down a little bit.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (17:38.094)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (17:52.547)
You know, don’t don’t get too much attention. So a lot of subtle clues, maybe, even unconsciously, that we get.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (17:57.377)
Yeah. Yeah, I like the word subtle because the mind is very subtle. And it could be also that that is why initially, right, you you tell the story of having difficulty trusting or or perhaps being attracted to emotionally unavailable men. That could have played a role in kind of that approach. Again

Debra Maldonado (18:18.863)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (18:25.612)
We could see it as as a defense mechanism, right? That if if life is showing you, there are people out there that don’t have the best intentions, then the mind takes that into consideration and says, Maybe I should have a little bit more defense against opening up completely to a man. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (18:47.001)
Well, even intimacy. I mean, this person exposed himself and I was like, so it’s like that defensiveness. You get that. But again, subtly, like it wasn’t that ruled my life, but it did, you know, the and there’s always more factors, you know, things compound. like and then also I I think one thing to mention too, when we think about safety, because this everyone has to deal with it, that it’s a spectrum that we all have to deal with safety, and then these things in our life either exacerbate that.

hypersensitivity or give you know, give us our experience and life forms that, but also genetically, don’t we have like a a predisposition, our personality to how to deal with safety, or if if you’re like an anxious, like you have like an anxious personality in your genetic code that that could affect that as well?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (19:40.317)
absolutely. I mean, we’re designed to survive above all. Like that’s the number one order that we follow above all survive. and so we have this instinct to to live and and to stay safe. And it’s very powerful. What happens is it when we experience these these subtle

Debra Maldonado (20:02.893)
I do want to s okay.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (20:09.04)
kind of situations that we’re not really sure if they’re traumatic or not. the mind still keeps track of them because it it’s using it to finally tune its approach to life. And so if you it they they do have a cumulative effect. So in my situation, it I never really suffer like traumatic, like obviously traumatic experiences.

But I you my family went through difficult transitions where we experienced what we would call poverty, kind of lack, all right, or uncertainty of where the next meal was going to come from and those kind of situations. That those cumulative effects then go into how you develop your personality, how you develop your point of view on yourself and life.

So that I I would say it instilled in me a sense of caution, a sense of, you know, you you better make sure you you’re you’re planning for the future and you’re taking care of of things so that they don’t slip back into those kind of situations. But

Debra Maldonado (21:27.598)
you what’s really go ahead. I have enough story to share.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (21:29.846)
Yeah, the the we we can see them as as adaptations, right? From the evolutionary perspective, they make sense. The the mind is helping you learn from your early experiences and then create mechanisms to safeguard you against experiencing those things again.

Debra Maldonado (21:37.443)
Hmm.

Debra Maldonado (21:56.218)
So it’s a sign of a healthy mind, even though it it might not be aligned with your conscious desires. And I think that’s really important to to not feel like you’re damaged in some way because you’re afraid of something or you’re clinging to safety. I think speaking of poverty, like had a friend that a friend of a friend, not direct friend, but a friend of a friend who had like tons of food in her her pantry and like it was only her and her husband.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (21:58.543)
Exactly.

Debra Maldonado (22:24.845)
Why do you have so much food? And she said, When I grew up, my you know, was uncertain whether we had food that week. You know, I was very, you know, in a very poor growing up. And so now I just make sure there’s so much food that it’ll ne and so she said, I know this, but I can’t stop myself. So we even know our patterns, but we can’t stop them. And also, you know, I worked for many years, as you know, and you too, and when we started working together with people with love and relationships.

And especially women who were like had already designed their careers, you know, they had they didn’t get married in their 20s. It’s their late 30s, early 40s, and they want to find love, but they’re really successful. And and they they built a kind of a life, the independent life. And and it it they wanted love so bad, but they the it’s that safety need of stability, like that person, I’ve heard it so many times that they’re gonna come in and take a wrecking ball in my life, like everything I built.

Or I’m gonna lose myself to this person. I’m gonna lose my independence. I’m gonna this person’s now going to, you know, take my money or take, you know, my peace that I have right now, even though I want that. So the safety need supersedes the need for love and belonging in that point, wouldn’t you say? That we even in that we’re always battling. And so even besides love, like thinking about like belonging and and and being a part of a group, like that safety need is first.

There we do want to be in a group, but we’re afraid we’re not going to be accepted. So we default always to the lowest rung of that need.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (24:02.274)
Yeah, and and so that becomes problematic when it becomes a repetition compulsion. That you you’re you’re kind of going back to that state of mind and then compulsively acting in the current situation, as if you were back in that lack situation. So it’s important to

Debra Maldonado (24:08.942)
Yes.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (24:31.288)
Process these memories and these experiences, but from a humanistic coaching perspective, right? In a non-clinical way. Because if you approach it from a clinical perspective, then you’re thinking, okay, there’s a chemical imbalance, there might be some depression, there might be some anxiety here, some obsessive compulsive disorder, and you get labeled with that.

Now, what happens when you we get labeled with those things? Again, these are authority figures, medical doctors or psychologists or psychiatrists telling you that you have this condition. And so your mind absorbs it. Of course, these are important things and and the they have a lot of stigma to them. And so you

Debra Maldonado (25:22.713)
It’s like the no SIBO effect in a way, right?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (25:25.418)
Exactly. Yeah. And and and and so it it’s a good idea to rethink the way we are taught about psychology and psychopathology, not only to buy into immediately into the medical model. Now, do people need a kind of a medical approach? Sometimes they do, of course. If somebody experiences real trauma, let’s say in your instance, if you

were abducted and kidnapped and you know, all those things that go along with that. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (25:59.556)
That would have been t yeah. That would have been yeah, probably more of a a traumatic experience than me protecting myself and knowing what to do.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (26:03.988)
Exactly. Yes. You’re you’re going to need yeah, you’re going to need specialized care with people that understand how to work with children that underwent those kind of experiences. But most of us, you know, the kind of these life experiences of okay, my family went through a difficult time. I went through a difficult time in school. I was bullied, perhaps, those kind of things. Often they we don’t need a medical approach.

approach or a psychological psychopathological approach to our our mind. a coaching approach, a humanistic approach works really well in those instances.

Debra Maldonado (26:49.751)
And so when we think about safety in your life right now, those are listening, think about your where do you where do you where is the safety relied upon in your life? And early in life, we always talk about this that the ego seeks safety externally. We look at our bank account. We look at do we have a steady job? Is the company I work for stable and I can have a steady job? Do we

do I have a house that I can go to every night? You know, that you’re not on a couch surfing. and personal security. Do you feel safe in in, you know, walking down the street? it’s it’s amazing, like when, you know, 100 years ago, maybe a little longer, women weren’t allowed to weren’t it wasn’t safe for a woman to walk in the street. They always had to be with a male companion, like in the Victorian times in the early 1900s, it was yeah, you can go out by yourself as a woman.

So there’s a lot of a lot of things that were taught or assumed. And this is also when we think about safety, these are passed down multi-generational-wise. Like they aren’t just what happened in your life, but your parents learned about safety from their parents and then their parents, and it just keeps going down the line. And so we make all these assumptions are just inherited in us. And so

Dr. Rob Maldonado (27:58.424)
Yes.

Debra Maldonado (28:12.675)
When we look at our life like I used to think everything was about my dad, you know, like the I have to work on this. And it’s it when we think about our development, there’s so many other factors. Like you said, there’s the genetics, but also so many other little subtle events and messages and we receive from teachers and the people around us and our family and you know, our parents and our sibling. I mean, there’s so much that you if you try to pinpoint, if I could find that one thing of why I can’t have the life I want, if I could just

free myself from that one thing. And it’s not that. It’s it’s very it’s like a a matrix, like Jung would say, the Mandalove. Like it’s very multifaceted. And the thing is not to have to figure it all out. I have to un uncouple myself from all the the the feelings of un not feeling safe. but really I think the more spiritual answer is what is safety to you? Like what

would bring you even if the world is upside down and things are in and out, like what would bring you how could you have a a feeling of safety? Where where can you get that from besides the world?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (29:23.148)
Yeah, luckily we know we can practice psychological mechanisms that help us deal with these minor obsessions, minor anxieties, minor depressions. We can work on stabilizing our own mind.

Despite the chaotic nature of the world, because the world is always changing. That’s its nature. Even nature itself, right? It will throw a hurricane or a storm or something that would appear chaotic and traumatic for us. But we can stabilize our own mind and and then experience that calmness in us, still doing what we need to do.

Still addressing our physiological and safety needs, but in a calm, collected way. In other words, we it doesn’t impact us as harshly. there’s a whole psychology of resiliency that kind of addresses this question as well. But you mentioned, for example, that your dad experienced anxiety in his life. Now, as human beings, we know.

We do not need to experience traumatic events to develop an anxiety because we learn from observation. Right? Social psychologists, there’s there was a psychologist called Albert Bandura who did a lot of research on that. Did children need to experience something directly in order to learn it? No, he said. The research shows that.

Debra Maldonado (30:46.905)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (31:10.242)
Children are observing, especially the parents, right? Early on, if the parent is afraid of let’s say spiders or or something more benign, like dogs, let’s say. They’re terrified of dogs and they’re afraid of dogs, the child will observe the parent being afraid of dogs and they’ll internalize that.

Or they mu they there is a good chance that they’ll internalize that as well. That then they’ll carry on that fear of dogs, even though nothing ever happened with a dog, to

Debra Maldonado (31:48.794)
And we’re very intuitive as kids because we as human beings too, we could read a room if we really pay attention. We could be in a room and we know, like I know I could sit in a room and I could feel the energy of the room, like what what’s what the temperature is of emotionally of people. And there’s rooms that make you feel like unsettled, and then there’s rooms that feel calm. I think that’s why people go like to church or to temples or to spiritual centers, because everyone’s in that calm place and we can kind of be.

in it together. But when we’re in a family unit, our unconscious is constantly open, you know, paying attention to things we’re not conscious of. Actually most of what we pick up is not consciously filtered through our conscious mind. And and we even if our parents never mentioned their anxiety I didn’t know he was even anxious until I was an adult until I was in my thirties. I found that out. I was like, no wonder he was always stressed out when he came home from work and he was really h really upset all the time. And

it was the way he handled anxiety. And so I was like, wait a minute. Now this makes sense. You know, this makes sense. But it wasn’t because he was he had some trauma. It was because, you know, he was worried about the bills and taking care of the kids and making sure every we were all fed, working three jobs, you know, to keep the lights on. And you know, I didn’t know all that. You know, as a kid you think, this man is so mad all the time, like and and upset and and I didn’t realize he was going through

So it’s just interesting. We don’t know what our parents are going through. So like you said, the kids expect the worst. And so what I interpreted that situation is he didn’t love me. You know, he he was like kind of like you know, just there’s something like there was no warmth there, you know, but he didn’t have any space for that. Just like when we’re in survival mode, we don’t have safe a place for love and belonging and nurturing. We’re kind of like hanging on, you know, white knuckling it.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (33:26.894)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (33:44.348)
And and so so many of our parents and and even you know grandparents have gone through the depression or great grandparents, depending on how old you are. they were going through a lot. And so that stuff gets passed down. fears, anxiety about safety that have nothing to do with us, but when we interpret it or a parent interprets it a certain way, you know, especially when we’re little, we don’t understand money and we understand we can’t have that bike like you know, Becky does down the street. Why does she get a pretty bike and I

get a hand-me down from my my sister or you know all these things that come up that we shape our experience from and again we can’t pinpoint one thing or one event. and some of us have one big event that happened and but we and tend to think that everything arose from that one event. And that’s not really true. I mean it probably had a big impact on your life, but there’s also other subtle things that reinforced it, especially afterwards, like how how did you cope with it afterwards?

And what support did you get afterwards? And how did you become res did you come resilient or not? That all depends on the like one moment in time is not the whole it’s not isolated, you know, it’s like a whole system that we’re tapping into.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (34:59.106)
Yeah, so when there’s a lot of anxiety in the in the household, let’s say the the parents are anxious because of financial reasons, but they don’t explain this to the kids, right? The the kids, what they experience is a free floating anxiety. And that’s that’s actually what it’s called. Free floating, meaning there’s no definition to why are is all this anxiety going on in the house. And so that

The child can interpret, like you say, the this anxiety as maybe I’m causing it. Right? I’m I’m the cause of this anxiety. Or that there’s some danger that I’m not aware of and that my parents are not telling me about. And therefore they develop, they might develop like a phobia of a particular thing that the gives them like a handle on the anxiety that, it.

Debra Maldonado (35:46.799)
Hmm.

Debra Maldonado (35:56.962)
So they need a they need an object of why they’re why they’re anxious. ‘Cause if it’s free flowing, it’s just anxiety. We and we all do this too when we feel anxiety, we need to kind of find something to project it onto so we can feel almost that’s I let me control like a sense of control in a way. Yeah.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (36:13.58)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. our brains are designed to find out what is the cause of this anxiety so I can solve it. But when there is no way to for them to find that one thing, then the mind just kind of fixates on something to give it a a kind of a stand-in for that anxiety. This is what’s causing the anxiety. Therefore, if I stay away from that.

Or avoid the that I’ll be fine or I’ll be protected. free

Debra Maldonado (36:47.565)
And so when we think when we think about like people stepping out and living their purpose, shifting careers, going in, doing something else, like I did when I was in my late thirties and really had that dark night of the soul. And it genetically there’s a a a probably a a component of genetic component of someone who’s more risk taking more risks than someone who’s more risk averse. And then you’re conditioned.

Of what safety means in your family. Like maybe you’re going around and you know, like always caravanning or or your father’s always moving to an family’s always moving to a new city because constantly changing jobs and you kind of be used to it. That’s like your normal and the kind of car what’s that, the roving person. and and so all that comes into play. And then, but ultimately.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (37:32.142)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (37:41.668)
The question people should ask if they’re not living their purpose, if they’re not moving forward, like the my the quote in the beginning, that you’re not choosing growth, you’re choosing safety, you have to ask yourself why. Like what is the fear? What is so scary? And what am I hanging on to externally that is limiting my life? Because anytime we put our faith in something external, we are on shallow ground.

Lady Jesus even said that in the Bible, build your house on solid rock versus sand. You know, we’re building our house on sand when we’re doing that. We because it’s gonna shift. The sands of time will shift. And so I felt that, you know, when I left the corporate world, it was like, I just have to do this. And I it took me so long to make that decision because I was that steady paycheck was so, so important. Like employment that gives us safety if I’m employed.

we’re all learn we have a steady job, we have steady income. That’s the that’s the best you can get in life. You know, don’t wish for anything else and risk that, right? For for something that may be just a pipe dream that most people would say.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (38:52.044)
Yes. the mind has powerful tools to deal with these relatively low levels of anxiety and repetition compulsions and those kind of things. but it requires us to learn the tools and then apply them. And one of the things we know is that insight is not enough. So often people think.

Well, I grew up in an anxious family, therefore I have anxiety. that doesn’t change anything. It’s some insight, it meaning you there’s a connection there or you see a connection and and that might help you a little bit to kind of have a handle on it. but it doesn’t really resolve the anxiety because we know the brain is not registering d anxiety at the cognitive level.

In other words, it’s not just a thought that, exact, it’s it’s not a rational cognitive thought, it’s more an emotion, which is irrational often. And that’s why why we see one of the definitions the definitions of of phobia is an irrational fear of an object or a thing.

Debra Maldonado (39:51.821)
It’s not rational, right? It’s not that rational.

Debra Maldonado (40:15.597)
Aren’t normal fears irrational? In a way? No? Okay.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (40:18.274)
No. No, if a bear if you if you’re hiking in and there’s a bear on on the tra on the trail, that’s a very rational fear that you need to be afraid of this animal, otherwise you you’re in danger of getting eaten alive.

Debra Maldonado (40:36.675)
I was just thinking from a spiritual perspective, but you’re right. We do want to stay alive. We want to protect the body. There’s a famous quote, I can’t remember it was Shanti Deva said, just because you know that you’re gonna have afterlife doesn’t mean you should lay down with the tiger. You know, you want to protect the body, you wanna live, you wanna have that survival. So this need is not bad. I mean, we do want to we have to feed ourselves, we have to survive. It’s just the question is, is this need blocking you?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (40:39.245)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (41:05.761)
in a rational way, irrational way of of having the things you want in life. And and then the anxiety you have about making that decision. some people we know have changed careers. We work with people I would become coaches and then all through my love training and coaching, people would our corporate ladies would always find something else they wanted to do and and change. And some were fine, you know, and others were like really terrified. And I think it’s just

You have to know where you’re at if you’re a risk taker and it’s easy. And then for other people, it’s not so easy. So you have to have tools, you have to have a coach to help you work with these things so that you can have the things you want. So you don’t let that anxiety and that fear take over your life. and so again, it’s not we should have physic physiological needs. We do want to keep our body alive, we want to feed ourselves, we wanna make sure we’re safe, and have stability in our life. That that’s

That’s a good thing. But it’s like almost like we think of it as a spectrum, like at the extreme where we’re so overprotective, the kind of hypervigilant of any kind of change. people that have like that obsessive compulsive kind of tendency to like, you know, they they can’t make a change, they have to stay in their routine, can be, you know, it it’s it becomes where there’s like that bell curve of it, it’s beneficial to us.

But then it becomes diminishing return after because it keeps us from really doing what we love. So the yeah, that yeah. So we we we have we need it, but we also don’t need it to run our life.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (42:40.142)
Yeah, that’s a good way to think about it.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (42:47.606)
Yes. And and so simply let’s say one of the principles is awareness. The more aware we become of these things, the more we’re liable to find a way to to kind of channel that energy in a creative way instead of letting it kind of develop into these repetition compulsions or anxiety patterns.

we can we can work with them and some we can master the the emotions.

Debra Maldonado (43:19.074)
And when we

And when we work with emotional triggers when we do shadow work, it’s interesting that everyone says when we get down to the core fear of like that person who triggers us and what would be the terrible outcome for them, it’s always I’m gonna die alone. And those are, you know, like I’m not gonna be safe. there’s this like we think our personality and our behaviors are keeping us safe. And that those things are actually the patterns in our life are actually keeping us stuck.

so how do we c how do we like come to terms with what is real, real a threat to our lives and then what is just our mind making up something that’s not real?

Dr. Rob Maldonado (44:05.526)
Yeah, and and back to the idea of positive psychology or a humanistic psychology, right? Most people do not need psychotherapy and medication because the mind is very subtle. we all kind of go through difficult periods in our life and difficult situations that stress us or challenges us. and and so coaching

addresses that need. So more and more we’re seeing that coaching is getting kind of used in that way. We saw recently that United Health, a big insurance company, hired coaches instead of sending people to psychotherapists because yeah, most people do not need that medical intervention. They simply need to work with their mind.

Debra Maldonado (45:04.963)
Yeah. And they’re they’re like high functioning people that just have everyday life problems like I’m going through a divorce or like it’s not pathological. People get divorced, you know. and again, there’s always the spectrum. There are people that actually need the therapy. We’re not saying it’s not needed, it’s just that not everyone needs it. And and I you know, obviously my parents didn’t think I needed it and I turned out okay. did I, Rob? Maybe I’m maybe I’m a

Dr. Rob Maldonado (45:05.038)
To develop some tools to work with.

Debra Maldonado (45:34.007)
Not realistic. Maybe you need to send me send me to the boonie. You always say you worked in a psycho I I what did you say? Mental health facility and that’s where you met me.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (45:46.882)
Yeah. We’re I think we all think we’re a little off, right? We’re a little different, but that’s just the nature of the

Debra Maldonado (45:46.883)
We’re just kidding. No, that’s not true.

Debra Maldonado (45:51.791)
Yeah.

Well, the human mind makes us feel like we’re crazy, you know, when we’re obsessing of over things and we are down on ourselves or negative on ourselves. It’s just like every human being ha experiences this. And if we all knew, if we could hear each other’s thoughts, that would be pretty pretty interesting, right? Because we would we would see f kind of feel, okay, I get it. I get it.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (46:18.904)
So we should continue this conversation, of course, on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs.

Debra Maldonado (46:21.359)
Yeah, I was thinking we could talk about love and relationships and what gets in the way of us having that intimacy and family, you know, the the sense of belonging and connection, especially if we don’t get along with our family sometimes, but we also feel we want to bond with them and that’s why, because we have that need to feel a part of something. So yeah, and how it can lead us also into like our

group at work, you know, the the I remember when I left MTV in ninety three, everyone’s like, what are you doing? You’re leaving like the cults. Like we all like kind of had this like tea the kind of tribe in the co company. You know, we all had the same you know kind of social experience. And I was leaving and they were like, wait a minute, you can’t leave. Like you’re not allowed to leave. There was like a lot of pressure. So that also

Is is hard when we do make a change. Sometimes we have to leave this situation or social group that we’re in to create another one. And that can be really tough on people too. Anyway, we’re going to talk about that next week and more to come. So thank you for joining us on Young on Purpose. I am Deborah Moldonado. Signing out. Yeah, see you soon. Take care.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (47:32.942)
Absolutely.

Dr. Rob Maldonado (47:41.698)
Doctor Robb, see you soon.