What Your Sibling Rivalry Reveals About Your Shadow

Episode Transcript

Debra (00:00.94)
All right, welcome back to another Jung on Purpose. I am Debra Maldonado.

Dr. Rob (00:06.263)
I’m Doctor Rob.

Debra (00:08.115)
And I want to just ask this question have you ever considered that your siblings could be the most important part of your life for your entire life? We’re going to talk about siblings today. And we’ve all have sibling rivalry. We look up to our siblings. Sometimes our siblings are our best friends. Sometimes we have they become our frenemies. We have conflicts with them.

No don’t talk to certain siblings. So there’s a lot of complexity to the sibling relationship. And we’re going to dive in that today.

Dr. Rob (00:42.606)
There are.

Yeah.

Debra (00:47.078)
And so before we begin, I do want to ask you a favor and make sure you subscribe to our podcast if you’re listening to us on any of the podcast services. And if you are watching us on YouTube, just click the button in the corner and you’ll get subscribed to our channel and receive all the videos that we put out every week on YouTube. So

We are we’ve been doing a series on the archetypal family field, which is our new system based on Jungian psychology and Eastern spirituality, non-dual philosophy, about family systems, how they impact our life, how they unconsciously run our life. And so today we’re going to continue that series and focus on our DRO brothers and sisters.

Dr. Rob (01:34.23)
And also if you’re an only child, we’ll talk about that as well. but for all the importance, like you mentioned, of siblings in our lives.

There’s very little research on that dynamic. Now, if you think about it,

Siblings are our longest lifetime relationships. Some of them some of them extend sixty, eighty years. They’re the people that they know who you are. They watched you grow up. You watch them grow up and go through all their life stages and you know.

Debra (02:06.375)
That is really profound, yeah.

Dr. Rob (02:25.72)
They’re still there. Hopefully they’re still there for you and you’re still there for them.

Debra (02:30.031)
And you live together and you were the most vulnerable stage of your life before you’re 10, before you were able to create, as Jung said, a persona that you can kind of the mask you wear. It basically we’re pretty psychologically naked and emotionally naked. And we’ve seen the worst of each other as siblings and the best of each other. And the the cool thing about siblings is for the most part, there’s a love that

Dr. Rob (02:51.15)
The the worst.

Debra (02:58.407)
can be a bond that cannot be broken because it’s blood, you know, because we have this blood and, you know, familiar relationship that it it’s even if we can’t stand a sibling, there’s still a love for them. We still can’t break that, which is something you can’t say for almost anyone in your life, besides your parents. cousins are a little more removed, but your siblings are really, really important. And we’re gonna talk about why they’re important.

So you know, like we talk about sometimes they’re estranged. They we don’t talk to certain siblings. Sometimes we’re together all the time and we’re, you know, you’re si living next door to your siblings. When I was in New York, and and grew up in New Jersey, everyone had like their family sort of lived in the same community that it’s Sunday at Sunday nights at grandma’s and we’re gonna go have

you know, dinner every week, or you’re living next door to your brother and your other siblings are all on the same block, which I don’t know if that happens anymore, but it’s really powerful, I guess, too, culturally, like how we deal with siblings and what’s that what that is about. And and then there’s siblings that live all over the world now. Like we my siblings, we live all in different parts of the this the country and and so

How do we how do we navigate those relationships that we see each other maybe once in a while?

Dr. Rob (04:27.724)
Yeah, so psychologically, siblings are horizontal relationships in comparison to our parents who are vertical, meaning they’re up here and we’re down here. We’re we’re puny compared to them, their status, right? But our siblings are parallel to us. They’re it’s a horizontal relationship, which makes it special. It’s even closer, of course, than peers and friends.

And then parents because with a parent, again, the authority is coming from them down to us, whereas with our siblings, it’s more complicated. It’s it’s often we’re friends with them, we’re also related, of course, we’re very close, we share the same genes, literally, right? The the pants perhaps or the the genetic code.

Debra (05:22.076)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob (05:25.866)
We share the same experience with the family, but this is interesting in that it might as well be that each one of us has a unique family because each one of us interprets our family field experience individually. It’s our own mental construction.

Debra (05:46.741)
So let’s just do a little review. The family field is this is like field of consciousness that we are in the family. So there’s this field of consciousness that’s not aware that we’re not really aware of. We’re kind of aware of some things, but most of it we’re not aware of. And it’s this unconscious assumptions, the stories about the family, the the roles we play, the the how we deal with life, love, relationships, money.

power, all those things we learn and the field is sort of a an unconscious collection of those ideas from the family that we pretty much all share. And then what you’re saying is that each of us, it’s as if we have our own family field because we don’t sh we we kind of share the field, but then we interpret it very differently. Like you said, the sibling sometimes we all agree. Yeah, we we saw that.

we didn’t see this. that’s not the way I saw it. Most of the time when I get together with my siblings, we’re always like, I don’t remember that it being that way, or I remember it differently. It’s we we we have a whole system of interpretation that we’re taking in as well. And so we have our own field, but we also share a field.

Dr. Rob (07:07.03)
Yeah, it’s the dynamics are intricate and complicated, and there’s no common language for people to talk about these things. and so that’s part of the family field gift, let’s say, is that it allows us to speak of these very subtle dynamics that are still very much a part of us because what happens in

As we experience our parents and our siblings, we internalize them. And then we carry that internalized model of a family, the family field, into life. And and like you say, it impacts the way we do relationships, the way we do work, the way we find our way in life, our sense of purpose or life.

Debra (08:01.566)
I also think it if you think about like here’s some things something to think about. Think about your role in your family and and then the the siblings you have and kind of like your assumptions about them, like how successful they are or competing or whatever, who is in charge. And then look at the the the team you’re in at work. Look not your boss, but the people that are your colleagues. what do you see in that or any type of group you’re in? You’ll see those same

family dynamics play out, people taking on those roles based on your own projection. that’s my golden child brother, you know, is always gets all the attention. Well, there’s Jim at work. He’s always getting the promotions and the boss is boss’s favorite. And so we see, and then we are the ones who are forgotten or we are the ones who aren’t getting the attention or the ones who are always criticized. And we find that that pattern

repeats and repeats and we think, well, I need another job. I really don’t like this job. I don’t like my boss. I don’t like the people I work with. And then guess what? You go to another job and the same dynamic plays out again and you’re just like, what is happening? And then you think, well, I just shouldn’t be in a job and maybe I should be my own business. And you’re trying to like change the external, but you’re not realizing that your own psyche is basically replaying that family field in all these situations.

Dr. Rob (09:26.796)
That’s right. yeah, so let’s start with the you know what a phenomena that’s currently we’re we’re all experiencing worldwide is this shrinking of the family field. People aren’t having as many kids as they used to. Some, not even any kids, right? and so it’s a whole new dimension to the family.

Debra (09:41.94)
Hmm.

Dr. Rob (09:56.848)
that we see now smaller units, smaller families.

Debra (10:01.864)
Sometimes single one child, because from what I know, like from what I see, a lot of women and the research shows that women are having children later. So they might not have enough you know s fertility to have more than one child. Maybe they have a child late in life or or they have trouble conceiving and you know, all those factors come in. Or even just thinking, I don’t want to have.

twenty kids. I wanna have a career. I you know, maybe have a couple. And so the family unit is is getting smaller.

Dr. Rob (10:37.516)
Yeah, it used to be you know, we were there was four of us in the family, and we were considered a tiny puny little family because many of our cousins the they were part of a twelve member family system or eight or you know, larger families. and so culture is always impacting how the family feel plays out.

Culture, technology, opportunities, economics, all those factors play into it. But let’s focus on what happens in the family field because the family, we can think of them, of the family as a as one unit. So it has a a mythology, it has a personality, it has a shadow.

Debra (11:31.998)
Persona, right?

Dr. Rob (11:34.048)
It has a shadow just like a an individual. and it has a narrative, a story of what is the family about? What it what is the history of that family and what are they proud of? What do they keep secret? Very similar.

Debra (11:51.369)
So kind of like like I we were a good Catholic family, hard workers, honest people, you know, cared about others, contributed to society, stayed out of trouble, you know, we were law-abiding citizens. And then some people, the religious part could be like the main part of their family narrative, is that that especially if the parents are very involved in the church or a pastor.

Dr. Rob (12:14.606)
Yeah, great time.

Debra (12:19.7)
Yeah, not a priest because they don’t have kids, but but that kind of like i icon in the in the society and then the family like we have to all be, you know, live up to the standards, which we know the shadow appears with that as well. Or the successful family, right? Where you know, we have this that one movie, All the Money in the World, Getty, you know, multi, I think he was a billionaire, I’m not sure, but he had tons of money.

And his son was like a kind of a goof and and like forgetting, you know, l artist flailing around and not living up to the family story. And when he got kidnapped, the father didn’t want to pay the ransom. He was like, See you later. So it’s that shadow part that we see in the family as well.

Dr. Rob (13:08.674)
Yeah, very much so. so in larger families, it used to be that the this myth of the family was able to be distributed amongst the children. and so that the children would play different roles. So somebody was successful, became a doctor, lawyer, politician, someone important.

another one was the trickster became the musician, the drummer, the you know, the wonder. and and variations, right? in other words, people within the family, the children could choose their roles. And there’s this phenomena called differentiation, where i if you’re the second born or thirdborn, you actively diff try to differentiate yourself.

Debra (13:39.356)
No artist. Yeah.

Dr. Rob (14:02.52)
from your older siblings so that you try to have your own identity. I’m sorry?

Debra (14:05.204)
So you said second or third born?

Did you say second or third born?

Dr. Rob (14:11.18)
Right, because the first one of course is the one the prince or the princes that kind of has yeah, has the parents to themselves and and so they kinda get everything that they want and the attention, but also the responsibility and expectations. Whereas the second and third and fourth down the line, they have to kind of make their own way in the shadow of

Debra (14:17.298)
The golden child.

Dr. Rob (14:41.026)
the eldest, right? and so

Debra (14:43.558)
I find it interesting that you and I both are second born. So that’s probably why we get along so well. We’re both rebels.

Dr. Rob (14:51.66)
Well, we had to make our own way, and and that’s part of it, right? so families distribute this myth of the family evenly among the children, you know, and and often it depends, right? individually the children either identify the themselves as the carriers of this family myth, of the narratives the narrative of family.

Debra (14:53.619)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (15:20.984)
We’re from an entrepreneurial family and we start businesses and we’re successful, or they rebel against it. Right? But either way, it’s still in relationship to that family field. And so their identities are tied to that family narrative, that myth, the mythology of the family. Very powerful. Somebody that somebody that never works.

Debra (15:47.132)
And then go ahead.

Dr. Rob (15:51.135)
at this level is always tied to that. It’s always part of their identity because it’s mainly unconscious. Again we

Debra (16:02.578)
So let’s let’s for example be the rebel, right? We the person is believing that they’re making this choice because it’s they they feel like doing this or that, or they’re not really realizing that they’re doing it in in objection to the family story or to to change be something other. Like I never thought I I’m gonna be different than my brother. I just felt I was different. I had different

different desires or a different personality. And I was always like kind of getting not getting into trouble, but more like you know, having fun. More fun. And he was more serious.

Dr. Rob (16:42.37)
You yeah, you you try to do things in your own unique way. You don’t follow the crowd.

Debra (16:47.016)
Yeah.

Debra (16:50.928)
And so part of that al though I also I think is genetics. I mean, sometimes we are, you know, the mixture of genetics in us that we have a tendency to be more risk taking versus not. So doesn’t that come into play when the sibling decides what role they are?

Dr. Rob (17:08.65)
Absolutely, absolutely.

Debra (17:09.97)
So let’s talk about those roles a little bit. Let’s talk about like just some of them. like there’s of course the trickster. We talked about the golden child that every expectation’s on them. There’s also the kind of the healer or the rescuer of the family that’s always trying to make everything better or smooth everything around, the mediator type of thing. they they stay out of trouble and they’re always trying to maybe if siblings are fighting, they’re the ones who try to.

smooth things over and and help. what’s a and then the clown is kind of the trickster too. What are some of the other roles?

Dr. Rob (17:47.683)
Yeah. I I think more in in function because we’re talking about roles, not necessarily archetypes here. roles are very flexible. In other words, I I can play several roles within the family. I can be the the smart one, I can be the the achiever, I can be the mediator, let’s say when when trouble breaks out, right? I I try to smooth things out in the family.

Debra (17:56.969)
Yeah.

Debra (18:11.091)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (18:16.706)
So I’m playing a lot of different roles that kind of I’m comfortable with or have been kind of truss thrust upon me and that I accept and say, okay, I’ll I’ll play that role. so it’s because a family’s like a like an organism and it has certain needs and the individuals within the family then step up to meet meet those needs or or not.

Right.

Debra (18:46.834)
Almost like to keep the harmony or just like our our own self, we have survival tendencies, like how do we keep this family together? And and so, so that’s you bring up a great point because a lot of people confuse the roles from an archetype. So let’s talk about what a archetypal role or archetypal element would be in the family. What what would be the difference? Okay, tell us.

Dr. Rob (19:08.974)
Okay. You’re you’re asking for it then. Yeah, so we all know on the surface, right, kind of the roles that we play, like like you know, the the sp the golden child like you were saying, or or the the black sheep of the family. Everybody talks about that one. Yeah, th those are just temporary and they are conscious, most of it. I mean

Debra (19:30.344)
The villain also, right?

Debra (19:36.852)
They’re like personas in a way, right?

Dr. Rob (19:38.595)
Yeah, they’re like yeah, roll personal roles that that we play out on on the stage of the family field. But where where do they come from and what’s going on psychologically? There we get into shadow elements, like we were saying, which are often repressed secrets that the family holds, that everyone knows you’re not supposed to talk about that.

and repress it. you’re not supposed to exhibit exhibit su certain emotions, right? In some families, anger, shouting. Yes. Exactly. And other families are the opposite. It’s that’s how they communicate through yelling, through screaming, through drama. So those things are all kind of still at the personal surface level.

Debra (20:19.688)
Cry and p don’t cry. Don’t show you’re scared, right? Be tough.

Dr. Rob (20:38.754)
The archetypes, Young says, they go much deeper. They’re at the collective level. So you were you were mentioning genetics. That might be one of the factors that plays into these older archetypal patterns. the mother, for example. Where does that role come from? It certainly wasn’t invented by that particular family. It’s a much older. Exactly.

Debra (21:02.42)
Like I’m gonna be the mother. I’m gonna play the mother.

Dr. Rob (21:06.624)
It’s a much older construct that goes back to animal life. ever

Debra (21:12.124)
And then you see like little kids, little girls would play the mother with the baby doll. Like it’s almost like mic mimicking and carrying that kind of role, like archetypal role.

Dr. Rob (21:23.286)
Yes. So already we in in family field system we start with the mother and the father and the child because that triad is the primary triad of a family. Like if you have those elements, you have a family. If they’re lacking or missing, then they they can be substituted, like you can have father figures if the f the biological father is not there, grandfather or

we know.

Debra (21:53.789)
Or the oldest sibling, usually like if an older brother kinda takes on the role, if he’s old enough, right?

Dr. Rob (21:58.499)
Yes. But no yes, but we note that the function is coming from the archetype, from an older structure that is not necessarily cultural and it’s not necessarily personal. So it’s not personal, it’s not cultural, it’s much older, it’s biological or instinctual as Jung calls it sometimes.

Debra (22:21.532)
So what you’re saying is that beyond the the roles that we’re playing, that unconsciously on a collective level, each family is expressing an archetypal like arc there’s an archetypal pattern or or like almost like a template that the family draws from to to like get the power or the insight or or what gives them

That role is archetypal.

Dr. Rob (22:53.42)
Yes, a and Jung speaks of it as energy. So the archetypal energy is coming from the this unconscious archetype. So the mother archetype is feeding energy to into the family. mother energy.

Debra (22:57.928)
Okay.

Debra (23:11.76)
As the nurturer, the caretak caretaker, yeah.

Dr. Rob (23:14.902)
Right, that’s right. and when it’s let’s say when it’s confused that that our typo energy is confused with the the personality that our mother is, our biographical mother, then that’s that’s a complex. That’s where the mother comes in.

Debra (23:33.053)
So can I let me ask you this then? Let’s say, and I’ve heard this story a lot, the mother doesn’t fulfill her role as the nurturer, the caretaker. She’s off working or she’s an alcoholic or she’s depressed, mentally ill. Let’s say she just can’t function as that. So one of the other children, you’re saying the it’s the archetypal power that the child is tapping into of the mother to equal out.

Or harmonize that family field? Is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Rob (24:06.624)
It could be. Yes, it could be that way.

Debra (24:08.678)
It c so where it is that where like that that it’s like a vacuum that gets formed because there’s no s there’s no person playing that that or or expressing that energy. So it needs to be expressed somehow. So whether it’s a g a sibling or a grandparent or something like has to come in and I what I noticed the reason I’m asking is what I noticed is that all the people I worked with were thousands of people over the years that had not great childhoods and

Dr. Rob (24:22.103)
Yeah.

Debra (24:37.616)
And the you know, the mother wasn’t around, but there were even one of the parents wasn’t around, there was always someone that showed up to fill that void for them, whether it was a an uncle or a grandmother or a grandfather, there was always someone to fill that role. So what you’re saying is that archetypally that we’re always the psyche’s always finding that role, what and we always get what we need. Is that correct? Even though it might not be from that.

Dr. Rob (25:08.438)
Yes, I mean

Debra (25:08.774)
Or we take on the role ourselves.

Dr. Rob (25:12.268)
That that’s part of it, yes, because these again, these are internalized systems. In other words, we’re not just talking about the biographical family, meaning the the individuals in the family interacting, but these are archetype archetypal elements that exist within each individual. Each and every

Debra (25:18.484)
Mm-hmm.

Debra (25:22.761)
Yeah.

Debra (25:32.927)
So each individual has all these archetypes, the mother, the hero, the the the trickster, the all the these quality or like energies, we should say. Not qu they’re not personality. And then they get expressed through a personality in some way. and then the parts of themselves that they don’t accept or they don’t want the role they don’t want to take on becomes more shadow or a complex. Okay.

Dr. Rob (25:35.885)
Yes.

Dr. Rob (25:59.299)
Yes, that’s right.

Debra (26:01.15)
But we’re we and when we look at the family, we’re seeing ourselves and the pe things and our siblings that trigger us are really parts of ourselves that we’re not willing to. So it’s not like the family is like like it is a field, but it’s also not as material as we think it is, because it’s all internal.

Dr. Rob (26:21.166)
That’s right. J yeah, and it’s good good clarification because often we hear people kind of mistake the roles that people play in in the families for the archetypes those roles are not archetypes. They’re not the archetypes.

Debra (26:39.72)
What would you say a difference between a role and an archetype, just to be clear?

Dr. Rob (26:44.898)
Yeah, so our role again is is at the conscious level, or i if it’s unconscious, it’s at the personal unconscious level. Meaning it has to do with the individual’s adaptation to the environment. And so they they adapt by playing that role. And it keeps the family in in balance or harmony, or at least functioning to some extent. but back to siblings then siblings represent

Debra (26:59.676)
Okay.

Debra (27:12.68)
Well what’s the archetype? I said, what’s the role of be Okay, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Dr. Rob (27:15.482)
These are roles. So yeah, we’re talking roles. the the archetypes we’ll we’ll get into it. I but siblings represent at at the role level, at the individual level, comparison. We’re comparing ourselves, right? Especially you and me, to our older siblings. How how do I compare to my older sibling, right? rivalry. So there’s a little bit of, you know.

Debra (27:22.685)
Okay.

Debra (27:36.051)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (27:43.768)
Can I out outdo my my teacher, my my mentor, my older brother or sister?

Debra (27:52.336)
Or the the rivalry with the younger siblings too, you know, the

Dr. Rob (27:56.121)
Yes. companionship, of course. We face the challenges together and I may learn things from observing or or hanging out with my older older sibling or or my younger siblings.

Debra (28:12.828)
I find that siblings tend to bond more when there is a united tragedy in the family, or like when my father died or he got sick, we were all like closer than ever because we were all having a shared experience that no one else outside of our family would understand.

Dr. Rob (28:31.566)
That’s right. mirroring. Mirroring is like we have these mirror neurons that when we observe people, we’re kind of acting it out ourselves in our in our heads and learning from that. So this is a unique aspect of humans. Well, maybe some chimps and dolphins might have it. But if we observe, for example, somebody doing something and they go, ouch.

we learn that that is dangerous or harmful and therefore we don’t have to go through it ourselves in order to learn that that is harmful or might be challenging or difficult for us. So that’s a

Debra (29:17.288)
So can I can I add an example to that? Like I was they always say like the raptor ch testing the fence. I was always the one pushing and testing the fence and I would get punished for or yelled at, sent to my room for talking back. And then I guess my younger siblings would learn from my mistake and then change their behavior from that. Is that what you’re saying? The mirroring?

Dr. Rob (29:42.008)
That’s right.

Debra (29:43.356)
Or watch when someone gets rewarded and be like, I wanna be l aspire to be like that.

Dr. Rob (29:48.717)
Yeah. Social learning also. And and differentiation. Differentiation is a fascinating idea. It it means that we’re taking stock of kind of what the family field is is about and the what the members of the family are doing and what role they they play, what niche they’re taking up. And we don’t want to take up their niche.

Even though we wanna we learn and and emulate our siblings, especially our our older siblings sometimes, we also want to find our own identity, right? And kind of find our own niche in the family. And so that’s where the roles start to differentiate. Now, here’s where our types come in. That in finding those niches, what we’re playing out is often

the roles that pertain to certain archetypal patterns. So that like you mentioned, the trickster. Yeah, there’s always one in the

Debra (30:58.79)
If you’re the one who’s always joking around and and making light of situations, you’re basically expressing the energy of the trickster. You’re not playing the role of the trickster because the trickster isn’t a role, it’s it’s an expression. It’s a it’s an energy, a disruptor.

Dr. Rob (31:07.308)
That’s right.

Dr. Rob (31:17.038)
It’s an older pattern that is collective, let’s say. That it’s not unique to the family. everyone in the world essentially has access to these older patterns, right? These archetypes. So that’s the difference between an archetype and a role. the way you you play the role in the family can be very individualized.

and it’s very particular to each family. And so that

Debra (31:49.289)
So someone who teases or someone who tells jokes are two different types of ways to express the trickster. Or the trickster could be someone who is always embarrassing the family. You know, the the beautiful, you know, religious family that’s perfect, and then the child is playing the role of the spoiler in a way, and embarrassing the family, getting in trouble.

stealing from the coffers, doing something illicit and and embarrassing the family. But there so it could be pl like you’re saying, the archetype is is an energy and then the way it’s expressed is more the role.

Dr. Rob (32:31.586)
That’s good yeah. I guess yeah, that’s a good way to make it into it in the family field.

Debra (32:33.8)
Like an individual, like personalized expression. And it’s done the archetype is just doesn’t have a defense mechanism to it, but the persona and the role is created for survival. So for someone who is the trickster, for example, in the family, always wants to make a joke about everything, their unconscious or their shadow may be afraid of vulnerability. and when things get too serious or people are

you know, upset about something, that trickster, like that energy, it it they tap into the trickster energy and maybe like make the family laugh because it’s they are uncomfortable with the silence or with the sadness or with whatever tough thing they’re going through. So that’s the kind of i a way to think about it. Would that be correct?

Dr. Rob (33:26.734)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. And in the these roles are very fluid though, keep in mind. th because someone plays a trickster at a certain stage of their lives or their of the families.

Debra (33:36.414)
Yeah.

Debra (33:41.81)
Or it’s a f not a fix, like that’s their personality. Yeah.

Dr. Rob (33:44.399)
Exactly. It it doesn’t define them. and that’s an important fact to remember as well. we often hear people kind of identify as these roles and these roles are just surface plays, almost like an actor playing different roles. You see them in one movie playing a comedy and or another movie playing a dramatic role.

Debra (34:10.918)
And like we talked about before we were recording today, we were talking about the conflicts, the roles. So we if you ever saw the show Better Call Saul, great psychological study on shadow and family dynamics and the two brothers. One brother was the golden child and the other one was the trickster, but the golden but the the golden child was the hero, but also the villain.

You know, and to the the younger brother. And so it’s you can play multiple roles because I I think what we’re you’re trying to do with the psyche is that it’s too much to be like almost like intuitively on on a deep unconscious level, it’s too much to be the perfect golden child all the time. So it’s almost like we sabotage and play on different roles and ha it’s a very complex way of being or personality.

Dr. Rob (35:07.234)
Humans are complex, no doubt.

Debra (35:09.042)
Yeah. Like so to to be fitted to one little role is very limiting to someone or to label them and even like your siblings too, like to think, that sibling was the golden child and that sibling was the trop the trickster. They’re they’re more than that. So one of the questions we think about in a small family is what role did you play in the family? Think about that role.

And then here’s some of them. These role, these are roles, not archetypes. Achiever, the companion, the caretaker, the future hope. There’s always that one person that’s like, yeah, we could do it. The emotional witness. and then what parts of myself never had room to develop because I was carrying the family’s expectation. So my question to you, Rob, is the role something we

intuitively or instinctively create for ourselves or is the role placed upon us by our parents or by the system? Or both.

Dr. Rob (36:15.98)
Yeah, I think it’s both, but we know as children, again, because the relationship with parent is vertical, they’re up here and we’re down here, they have a huge influence on us. Their expectations on us, their projection on us. Jung says that the the unlived life of the parent is really the biggest factor that goes into shaping the child because

All you’re gonna feel that unconsciously. Now, this is all just transmitted, it’s kind of downloaded to you unconsciously that these are the expectations I hold for you. And sometimes overtly, right? They tell you we want you to be successful and go to school here and and be this particular thing. that pattern we often see play out.

And people get into their careers and then they start to feel like, this is not what I’m meant to be doing. Like, what am I doing with my life? This is not what who what makes me happy and who I am. But, you know, often it’s too late. They’re they’re invested so much time and energy in becoming doctors and dentists and lawyers or whatever and

And now they wanna do their own thing and it’s it’s challenging. So some people do it of course. We we work with people like that as well. but i it is challenging.

Debra (37:46.313)
So for example, the golden child, the the parents place all the expectations on them. They go, they pay for their college, they go to the right schools, they get the education, they have the family, and everyone’s so proud of them. And then they’re dying inside because their soul is going, I just want to l draw or I wanna act. I wanna do something different. And not what my parent but they feel this conflict because that role and that pressure from the family.

has has basically tunnel visioned them into the decisions they made in life and they didn’t even realize it’s almost like you it makes so tone so much sense that you follow that the role that you’ve been given and and I think the opposite too the the trickster person that’s always the screw up, right? If the family’s always projecting, you’re the screw up, you’re the screw up, guess what? That person’s always going to kind of live out that assumption.

Or they they believe that about themselves. And then for them now to break free of that and become a responsible, successful person in their life, you know, maybe that’s the their challenge, right? So it’s like almost like we have to break those roles. And that’s really what individuation is about. It’s about knowing that these roles and these this personality and the choices we made in life are very subtle and they’re very complex, and we’re not even conscious of why we choose certain things.

And then the only way we know we’re ready is when we reach that point where we hit a wall and we say, I don’t not happy. You know, I’m not, this isn’t the relationship I want to be in. This isn’t the the the work I want to be doing. I don’t like where I live. why why do I need this big house? why am I commuting two hours each way? a lot of people had that during COVID when they started working from home. They were like, What the heck am I doing? Why am I

you know, spending so much time away. And so it is it’s like an awakening. And that’s what really the AFF model that we do, the archetypal family field, is really a way to understand those complex construction of our personality and the things that we don’t know that are really unconsciously making our decisions. And why it’s so hard to change, because we can’t change what we’re not aware of.

Debra (40:08.646)
If if we knew what the problem is, we’d we’d be it would be easy to change, I think, in a way. Maybe not as easy because we’re so conditioned, but it’s easier when we know. But if you don’t know, it’s like walking in the dark trying to find your way through a maze, looking for answers that you don’t know where you’re looking for.

Dr. Rob (40:23.66)
Yes, because because from the yeah, from the individual perspective, it will appear as if you made those decisions yourself, first of all. And then that the obstacles to making changes are external. instead of seeing the potential in you, you’re seeing the obstacles externally. So Jung says the the internal conflict that we carry from our families into life.

we project it on into the world so that it’s going to reflect back to us in our jobs, in our relationships, in our spiritual life, even in our health. We know it’s connected to my body wellness.

Debra (41:12.946)
And so when we think about the family field and we think about what it does, is initially it it is about the roles we, you know, we we want to like we’ve taken on that aren’t ours, that we’ve used for adaptation and survival and really letting discovering who we are, but also looking at our siblings as not as the enemies or you know, the frenemies or the l admiration. We look at well, what is what are they showing me about my mind? Because

Look at your siblings and you a part of you is in each one of them. What you’re projecting onto them, what you assume about them, the labels you give them are all inside you, whether you accept them about yourself or not. And the ones you don’t accept are the ones that are what Young would call in your shadow or part of a complex that you aren’t able to fully express. And there’s some sort of judgment you have about that. I can’t be the the golden child, I can’t be the leader.

because I’ve never had that role in my life. I I think a lot of times too, when we think about success, we don’t we’re not used to being the leader. So we don’t know how to step into that when we especially people that want to be entrepreneurs and they want to break away from the corporate world. If if their family field is set up where they’re not the leader, they’re maybe something else. They’re like more like compensating or or they’re kind of holding everything together. They’re not directing. it would be hard for them to to

kind of take on that role. It’s almost like we have to really un let go of the old pattern or the old self in order for us to step into it. It doesn’t mean we don’t have it. It’s just that we’re not conditioned to be that way. Where for some people, to be the Joker is very easy because it’s we’re it’s easy to be our conditioned self. It’s much harder to be the self that we choose to be. And we can’t choose it unless we know

what we’re choosing from, you know, we’re if we’re just assuming we’re this surface personality and the world is out there and we’re separate from everything and the people are separate from us. we all we can do is navigate the world and and try to buffer ourselves in more survival mechanisms. But if we find our our true self, we can now choose and we could see the world reflecting back or mirroring back, like you said, and and and teaching us about ourselves so that we can make those choices on a conscious level.

Dr. Rob (43:40.653)
Yeah, back to siblings then. there’s another phenomenon that’s interesting, where siblings tend to take opposite roles, almost like persona shadow elements, but in relation to the larger family myth. So let’s say the family has the myth of we’re

successful family we you know our kids are great they’re well educated well behaved they’re pillars of the community yes so that’s kind of the family myth one sibling might embrace that and carry that forward and hold that up as that’s who we are another one might do the opposite and say that’s not who we are underneath the

the carpet, there’s a lot of dirt. And they start to spill the beans and to say, No, all this, all this other stuff is going on in the family. And so there’s a sibling rivalry there already of, you know, the the the first one might say, Why are you bringing up this past stuff? You know, why can’t you let it go? and the other one’s saying, Well, why are you not facing up to these things?

And trying to present like a a false sense of

Debra (45:05.104)
A rosy rosy picture of our childhood, yeah.

And so that’s kind of like the revealer, the person who’s kind of the the truth teller in the family. And then the person who’s kind of carrying the myth, their shadows of each other.

Dr. Rob (45:24.662)
Yes. And again, each one probably believes they’re completely right because each individual is constructing their own inner model of what their family life was about. And so they pick and choose and according based on their role, of course, based on their alliance with the the parents or the father or the mother or you know both.

Debra (45:29.736)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob (45:54.387)
they take on this aspect of the family system, the family field, that they they are the carriers of the myth of the family. And the other ones they do the opposite. They reject it. They want to create something new.

Debra (46:12.242)
So I see this too, like the the the per sibling that wants to carry on the myth, they basically replicate the family and have their own family and they have their kids and they do maybe if the family had like six kids, they had their six kids and and then the other person who’s the opposite says, I’m gonna do things differently. I’m gonna get a career first, I’m not gonna have children. And so that that’s a a way what you’re talking about, something like that.

But we don’t we think we’re making these choices, but we’re not. We’re making them unconsciously, that we’re not choosing these things. And that’s I think the hardest thing for people because they think we’re we think we’re choosing our own life and we’re not. it’s it’s very unconscious. And so let’s I know we’re almost out of time. we we have so much more to cover on this, but I think there’s some other issues that we could talk about maybe on the next podcast.

about blended families and then how that affects the field and and also like estrangement. I think that that’s a big one too when someone leaves the family. I think also adoption. sometimes there’s a blended family of you have a couple of kids and then you adopt kids and then there there’s a lot of you know how what that role is and all those things. So I think it there’s a lot to talk about. So we could talk about that next time.

But to wrap up, really, I think the main idea is to think about your siblings as almost a balancing system that we’ve made for our life that create our persona. our parents have an impact, but our siblings also impacted the personality that we kind of hold. Because to survive in the family, not only do we have to please the parents.

We had to fit in with the dynamics. And let me ask you this. Does the oldest child have more power to choose who they are? And then the as the kids grow younger or younger, there’s less roles for them to choose from? Or is it all just kind of works its self out to balance out? What do you think?

Dr. Rob (48:27.242)
I think each family finds their own way. Just like individually, we you know, we have our a unique set of talents and skills, and and then our environment is unique and therefore we just have to make it work for ours for ourselves. each family kinda has that challenge as well. And and they make it work. families, you know, they love each other.

they find a way to make it work. Or not, right? Or even if they fragment and divorce, the individual still kind of find a new a new pattern or a new role, a new way of being as a family.

Debra (49:14.388)
Would you say the personality is more of a survival mechanism? And then once we go through and and like kind of a un des deconstruct our personality and become who we really are, that it’s not as it’s not as rigid, it’s not as fixed, and it’s more a present where we’re showing up in in every situation more present and more

aware and and choosing our our destiny and choosing what groups we want to be in and choosing our role in those groups. and then the personality, those fixed personality traits are really the rigid construction from our ego to survive and thrive in in the world. But they’re not they’re very almost like a prison in a way where we have true freedom when we’re not locked into a certain behavior or a certain personality.

Dr. Rob (50:08.906)
I I think it’s both because for certain people they are trapped in their personality because they don’t consider any other possibilities. Like they don’t believe them to be true or real, and therefore they don’t perceive them. Whatever you believe to be true is what your mind shows you essentially. so those people that do not believe they can change their personalities.

their personality is who they are and will always be, then their mind shows them that. And so they they kind of they’re stuck. whereas people that believe otherwise that no, I I if I really want to change something about my life, something about even my personality, I can change it. Right? It might take me some work and dedication and struggle, but I can do it.

The people that believe that and move towards that actively, find ways to do that change. That’s what individuation is. otherwise we’d we would all be stuck.

Debra (51:21.054)
So, bottom line is that if something is not working in your life, you want to have a better relationship, you want to make more money, you want to change careers, you wanna find your purpose, you wanna have better health. The family field is really the unconscious creator of your current reality. And we have to figure out what roles you played, what conflicts you have with having what you want.

Because it may be that your family myth says you can’t be rich. Rich people are bad or or that I remember one woman I worked with a long time ago with s weight loss and her whole family was overweight and they ate a lot and that the everything around the family was about eating. And when she lost weight, it was like she like became like the the the she abandoned her family in a way, like she felt like didn’t belong.

And so it was like she said, it doesn’t make any sense, but I feel like I’m not connected to them anymore because I’m not a certain size and I don’t eat that way anymore. And it’s so it’s these subtle things that bind us to that family loyalty, that family story, that myth, that it doesn’t make logical sense that the reason why we’re not getting the things we want in life and and the work we’ve done with archetypal family field.

This new system, if you want to be a practitioner, we have a next cohort starting very soon. the links in the show notes below. we’ve seen incredible shifts happen almost immediately with people with their money stories and their relationship issues, because we’re getting at that deeper level, the archetypal level, not just rearranging the personality or being more confident, but we’re getting at the root of what’s that unconscious.

conflict we have around the things we want.

Dr. Rob (53:18.402)
Yeah, and I think the reason it’s so powerful, it’s because it’s very personal. It’s like not abstract. It we’re not talking about shadow purely as an abstract concept. We’re talking about your personal history and understanding the the impact it had on you, the imprint it left on you, and how to change that, how to work with that directly.

Debra (53:22.59)
Mm-hmm, yeah.

Debra (53:43.423)
No. Everyone knows their family story. you ask someone, every new client I have, the first thing they say is, Here’s what happened when I was, you know, my mother was this way, my father was this way, I had a brother that was like this, or a sister that was like this, and I had to deal with this, and that’s why I’m the way I am. And that that’s the just the beginning. That’s the the surface narrative. What we want to get at is that deeper unconscious narrative that we’re not aware of.

And that’s really what’s going to set us free. So thank you for joining us. We will go deeper into this because we do have a lot more to share on this topic. please let us know what you think. If you have ideas for the show, things you want us to talk about, please reach out and let us know. We’re always here to willing to cover topics that interest you.

Dr. Rob (54:33.134)
See you soon.

Debra (54:34.206)
Take care, everyone. Have a great week. Bye bye.