How Shadow Work Changes Everything

Episode Transcript

Debra Maldonado (00:00.845)
Hello everyone, welcome to Jung on Purpose. I am Deborah Moldonado.

Dr. Rob (00:05.015)
I’m Doctor Rob, welcome to the program.

Debra Maldonado (00:07.511)
And we have a very special show today. We have some of our master level students on or graduates that are going to share some experience on their individuation journey and how they work with clients just to inspire you so you don’t just hear it from us. And I’d like to introduce Miguel Santos over in Portugal, Drew Turner, I don’t know where you’re arriving these days, and Dr. Karen Chen, who’s in the West Coast, right?

Dr. Rob (00:23.567)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (00:32.313)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob (00:37.869)
Welcome guys. Good to see you. Thanks for being here. Appreciate it.

Karen Chen (00:38.06)
Yes.

Debra Maldonado (00:38.243)
Yes. Yeah. there our top coaches, they’ve taken the top training with us and they have so much insight to share. But before we begin, I do want to ask you if you could subscribe to our channel if you’re watching us on YouTube. If you’re watching us or listening to us on the podcast services, don’t forget to hit subscribe and get reminders of every episode. So I’ll hand it over to you, Rob.

Dr. Rob (01:04.131)
Yeah, so you know, I often joke that Deb and I are closer to the people that do this work than our own family. But it’s actually true. It’s actually true. because you guys know what we do and and you’re in the work itself. And that creates a special bond and kind of a special understanding that we don’t have with other people. So

again, thank you for taking the time to be with us to share some of your wisdom. And you know, we want you to feel comfortable. tell us you know, how you really feel, what’s what’s been your experience in the program so that others can I it you know, i these kind of programs are always about a good fit. So the more information people have, the better they’re able to make those decisions for themselves.

Yeah, so our work is really based on depth psychology, of course, Jungian psychology, Eastern philosophy as well as current neuroscience. the combination is what makes it so special. It gives us different perspectives. some of my training originally was in the what was called at that time the biopsychosocial model.

Meaning we look at biology, we look at psychology, and we also look at kind of the social setting of the individual. Now we’ve even taken it further because now we look also at the spiritual aspect of our clients. not in a religious sense, of course, but i in in a consciousness sense. What do we know about consciousness, awareness, how the mind works, what is reality?

all these important questions that that really give us a a deeper understanding of how to help our clients. And and so to have you guys come on the sh the show and and share some of your experiences regarding what’s what’s been your process of learning some of these skills and points of view.

Dr. Rob (03:26.902)
And how t how have you been applying them with your actual clients that you work with? And what kind of results, what kind of feedback have you gotten? That’s really useful. it’s useful for us to hear, of course, as as the creators of the programs, but also for others to understand well, what are we doing here in this Creative Mind University and this neuromindra method?

So yeah, let’s yeah, go ahead. Yeah, let’s start with Miguel.

Debra Maldonado (03:59.376)
So like let’s start with Miguel. yeah, like could you describe like just your own personal experience, experiencing the process of individuation?

Miguel Santos (04:13.505)
Okay, first of all I want to say thank you for being here. thank Deborah and Dr. Rob about inviting me to this podcast. I also want to share my personal gratitude to to both of them and also other coaches here in the program because it’s really changed my my life, the way I see the the the life right now. So really really was a

Dr. Rob (04:24.366)
Absolutely.

Miguel Santos (04:43.073)
very big transformation and I want to share this with the world so I’m trying to share with my customers, my my family, my friends. So this is what I’m trying to do. Before the program I f I felt a little bit felt a little bit I was very anxious person and I I I was a high achiever I I am a high achiever person. I did a lot of high level jobs

And I I feel a lot of anxiety and somehow I I was going to therapy, it was not helping me. and somehow the Abraham Rob Podcast came to my life and immediately I saw this podcast I I subscribed to the program and I I I really changed the way it worked with me because I started to see all the time I was blaming the world about everything bad in my life.

So I have this anxiety. I didn’t understand about what was happening, I thought I was broken. So the first thing of the program I learned that I’m not broken because I felt totally broken. and so this is one thing I really changed the the way I see the the the life. So the anxiety was actually helping me and I didn’t understand. I thought it was trying to

to to make me a little bit why I have this anxiety, why all the time feel anxious. And so I understand I try I I start to look inside because I never look inside. I thought everything was outside. So with Deborah and Robs explaining me everything about projections, about shadow work, and I really start to change the the way I see the world. So it’s I really thank

Thank you both guys and the program and all the coaches because it’s not just them but everybody in the program it’s very good. And also I want to say this is specifically for me. I was taking pills, medicines before the program and I now I don’t take any pills. because I I c I know how to to cope with my anxiety or because I d the anxiety disappeared because of the program, but I have know what is telling me I can work with the anger, with the everything, all the emotions, happiness and everything.

Miguel Santos (07:00.491)
So I know better how to do it and it’s very, very transformative for me.

Dr. Rob (07:05.741)
That is awesome.

Debra Maldonado (07:05.977)
What was your favorite or best like most impactful part of the process itself for you? Like what like is it pr was it the projection? Was it the shadow work? What was like the most powerful part for you in your transformation or or when you work with clients, what do you think has really like lights them up or or makes such a big impact?

Miguel Santos (07:28.139)
I think all of them what you said it’s was really important. Projections and shadow work. But really what is making the change is to feel the emotions and and and feelings are not bad. They are trying to tell you something. I think this is really and you are not broken. So you have anxiety is is some message that you need to heard and you’re trying to avoid this hearing inside. You’re trying

Debra Maldonado (07:41.805)
Mm.

Miguel Santos (07:54.252)
These people are doing this, these traffic jams, the weather is like that, everything is bad, and you But I cannot feel peace inside, and that’s what you try. I think this is the most important part for the program is when you you start, okay, maybe it’s me. And this I’m projecting these stuffs outside. I didn’t know nothing about projections, about shadow work before the program. I wa I’m a physics engineer, I was very materialistic world view, so it’s really

Dr. Rob (08:16.599)
Mm.

Miguel Santos (08:24.319)
Change the way I see the world, yes.

Debra Maldonado (08:26.937)
So now you’re an inner engineer.

Dr. Rob (08:29.059)
Mm-hmm.

Miguel Santos (08:29.485)
Kind of. Kind of. I’m still yes, kind of, yes.

Dr. Rob (08:34.967)
Miguel, yeah, I just wanted to add that i it’s been great ha to have you in the program. I mean you bring such lightness and joy to the work. So we really appreciate you. what can you tell us about your work with your clients? What what’s been your experience there?

Karen Chen (08:39.66)
.

Miguel Santos (08:54.689)
Yeah, th th that’s really in enriching me also because actually we w when we work with clients we also work with ourselves because it’s there’s a lot of emotions on the sessions and the vulnerability by the clients and by by the coaches. so this is really making also when we do a coach session also I think it it helps a lot to to to

to feel this vulnerable vulnerability. It’s and also what what I’m trying to say is about the the emotions. I think wha my w what the clients I I receive, they struggle about they don’t understand like I was not understanding that the emotions are friends and they are still in the persona. I think this they ever asked me a question about persona. I was really in a persona role. I didn’t know that I sh I could go out from this persona. So this is another thing I learned in the programme.

So I’m trying to help people about the persona. They have this, they think they are the engineer, the physics engineer, the the the med the doctor or whatever. They are that, but they also much more. And I think this to help people to understand they can be whatever they want to be, that they never dream, they can be the painter, they can be the musician, and also what they are doing. So this is actually the biggest transformation I’m helping people to s to know that they can be

Bring the power to them. I think this is the bring the power to them. Not not blaming outside and bringing the power to them. Like I think this is the biggest thing. And also you bring the power to me with your program. I think I I was feeling powerless and actually going inside I feel much more powerful. I these projections and everything. So it’s really I think this is the biggest thing when I’m working with clients, the the bring them the power because the emotions makes you feel

weak, I have this anxiety, I cannot work or I cannot and the woman was shouting to me and I and if people feel very weak and when you bring the power to them I think this is very, very grateful. I think this is the most important.

Dr. Rob (11:06.039)
Yeah, that’s good to hear. Yeah, that’s great to hear because it it is the intention was to give people an empowerment model so that they can work with their natural mind, right? Like you say, the emotions are not bad, they’re they’re simply there to give you information. and that ch changes the dynamics in the mind, in a person’s mind.

Dr. Rob (11:36.153)
Thank you. Thank you for sharing that. We really appreciate it.

Miguel Santos (11:38.38)
Thank you very much for the thank you very much.

Debra Maldonado (11:40.495)
Thank you, Miguel. All right. And we’ll do a roundup at the end too. We’ll wrap up any because I’m sure when you hear everyone else, you’ll have some other insights. let’s start with go to Drew. Drew Turner.

Drew Turner (11:54.565)
Thanks. I’m so happy to be here because I think this work is so much about it’s so impactful, right? And also it’s very hard to, I think, articulate it because of the level of the impact that it has. So thinking back on my own journey, I think there was the overall kind of overarching theme of the whole thing is really it freed me from who I thought I should be.

And gave me the space to embody who I actually truly am underneath all of that. And Deb, hearing the the question you asked Miguel around what was the most impactful part of the process, right? That was that’s a really good question. Because I think that there’s there’s an element of understanding, right? But then there’s a whole nother element of actually experiencing it. And

The two pieces that came up for me when you asked Miguel that was one, the shadow work, being able to understand all the qualities that I had pushed aside that I could not be like, and having the choice to be able to step in and embody those. And even today on this podcast, like one of the ones that I think so clearly stands out to me is kind of the more whimsy side of myself, like more whimsical, more playful, right? And I

About halfway through the program, I want to say I started experimenting with just how I showed up, right? And like doing my hair differently. And I’m learning how to do space buns now. And it’s like it’s such a more playful side to me that I think previously, had I not done this work, wouldn’t have felt safe to embody. Because I had to be taken seriously. and then I think the second piece of that too is while doing this shadow work, what it opens up on the other

End of that, of realizing that you can actually create anything that you want. Even saying it out loud still gives me goosebumps because of how empowering that is, right? Like I think in outside of this work, we do a lot of over-analyzation and just thinking through our problems, right? And to Miguel’s point, you have to feel it. If you don’t feel it and you don’t see what that emotion is trying to show you.

Drew Turner (14:12.976)
We can overanalyze all day long, but it’s not gonna give you any progress and it’s not gonna free up any psychic energy to then put into what you want your life to look like, you know? So that for me it’s just been so empowering because it has opened up my mind. Instead of like being tunnel visioned, it’s like I have this whole broad landscape now of potential that I can choose what I want and go after it and create it. And it’s

so much more freeing than I think traditional self-help work is.

Dr. Rob (14:48.984)
Interesting. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (14:50.371)
And what like you said the shadow work, anything else that really comes to mind of like the aspect or I like that I what you said about the direct experience because you can do techniques on anyone, but they don’t have the intellectual understanding of the theory. And then you could have an intellectual understanding of a theory. You can read Young’s books and all the Youngins out there and say, I know what my archetype is and all this stuff. But if you don’t have a direct experience, it

It’s just on the surface. It’s it really is that the two together. So what would you say that was there one particular turning point where you were like, wow, like a big aha that happened in in your process?

Drew Turner (15:19.471)
Yeah.

Mm, yeah.

Drew Turner (15:33.323)
Mm, I would say yes. I think within a couple months of going into the program, I started to notice this direct connection between how much I was making myself small and not wanting to be perceived as stupid. Stupid was heavily in my shadow, and I still see it come up in ways, and it’s so easy for me to identify now, because it’s usually the main thing that I’m scared of perception from others about now.

And how, especially when I was younger, like it helps me extend myself some compassion because I understand where that where that came from, right? Like not wanting to be perceived as stupid, yeah, like when it boils down to it, it really was protecting me from being abandoned again from especially from at birth with my adoption. But I think outside of that too, it’s like it was preventing me from doing things like

putting Christmas lights on my house because I was gonna be out there trying to figure out how to use this tool for the first time and I didn’t really totally know how. And, you know, the minute that I started uncovering that, I put Christmas lights on my house for the first time. And I, you know, I think it’s also a part of what helped me explore just my own self-expression, how I dressed, how I do my makeup, how I do my hair, because I’m not afraid that someone’s gonna be like, look how stupid she is. Like she looks dumb like that, you know?

Karen Chen (16:35.117)
Thanks.

Drew Turner (16:57.998)
Like it it opened up the world of possibility of like, what do I? And I could experiment and not feel that pressure of potential judgment, which ultimately was my own judgment towards myself, right?

Karen Chen (17:06.205)
you

Debra Maldonado (17:11.521)
I often find the the s most intelligent people have that sh in their shadow. Like it’s like the opposite. Like they’re they like they feel like they have to prove their intelligence all the time, but it’s like the the smartest people. And people think a confidence is about someone like what’s in their shadow is something that they’re expressing, you know, that they’re stupid. No, it’s the opposite. It’s the thing they’re not being. And and I think our persona give makes us have so many, so much pressure.

Drew Turner (17:18.231)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Turner (17:25.092)
Mm-hmm.

Karen Chen (17:35.805)
you

Debra Maldonado (17:41.798)
on being what we’re rewarded for. You know, we’re rewarded for being beautiful, rewarded for getting married and having babies, rewarded for success. And so we think we have to keep that up. And that ends up building a prison around who we can be. And so yeah. And so you were you work with professional, like talk about a little bit about your clients. There are like professionals who are tired of the corporate world, wanting to get out.

Drew Turner (17:44.897)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Turner (18:04.366)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (18:09.221)
or wanting to grow their career. what do you find help how this process, how it does it help them and your clients? What have you seen?

Drew Turner (18:18.713)
Yeah. So I specifically help with women that are in a mid to senior level leadership role that feel like they just continuously have to prove that they belong there. And that can look a variety of ways. I know this based off firsthand experience because I was that woman in that leadership role that was walking out of meetings constantly overthinking, what did I say? Did I say the wrong thing? Did I say the right thing? Right. Reading everyone’s tones, making sure I didn’t, you know, ruffle any feathers. And

think so much of the work that I get to do with women is one really being able to help them realize that this this box they put themselves into is not all that they are. I remember putting my whole identity into my job. And if something went wrong at work, ooh, that meant I wasn’t sleeping. That meant I was, you know, super anxious and overworking and always having to be on.

And I think the most empowering piece of this is really helping them understand that they can have compassion, and most of them do, and they have compassion so much for women or for people outside of them, but starting to extend that compassion inward. It’s amazing what that does. I think all of us on the screen are probably highly empathetic people. And once we can extend that empathy inward, it starts to break down that like super harsh inner critic.

And just how much energy it takes for us to keep that kind of facade up, right? Of always having to be perfect. Can’t ever say the wrong thing, because God forbid, then, you know, someone views me as not intelligent or not capable or I don’t deserve the role or what have you. and that’s what I think so much of this power has been for these women is being able to take back some of that energy.

Dr. Rob (20:11.54)
Drew Turner (20:13.957)
That they are constantly overworking and putting into everyone else and being able to actually self-identify, do I wanna stay here? I have some clients that did that wanted to stay within the corporate environment and wanted to be able to grow and continue to get promotions, but not feel like it was their entire life. And then I had some other women that were like, hey, this isn’t for me. I’m gonna go figure out what I truly wanna do. Some went into kind of more creative pursuits. majority of them went into basically owning their own business.

Dr. Rob (20:26.085)
Drew Turner (20:43.942)
specifically I think because the corporate environment really does give so much as far as structure and it really limits I think how women can perform and some just self-select it out. But I think either one is really it’s just up to the client that I work with, but I’ve seen an array of it.

Debra Maldonado (21:01.635)
And do you find that they how are they how do they approach is with the shadow work, it really helps them understand what they’re projecting and can you talk a little bit about that?

Drew Turner (21:11.63)
Yes. Yeah, for sure. So one of the clients that I first thought of when you asked that question is she was very successful, got herself up to a senior manager level within a very well-known company. And once she got there, she felt like she was never able to turn off. She always had to be available for her team. She always had to make her family proud.

Which was based off of the societal expectations. So she was the career woman, right? She knew that she didn’t really want to have to continue down that path. and that was after doing some work with her. I think initially she thought she was just burned out and she could move past it. but it was after that exploration that she realized, like, not only is she putting these insane expectations on herself, but

Dr. Rob (21:55.502)
Yeah.

Drew Turner (22:03.79)
Then she’s also having to try to lead her own team through it while she’s burned out herself. And the couple main qualities that were in her shadow is very similar, actually. It’s the being perceived as stupid. it was also the like her own ability to like she couldn’t be incompetent. Like she had to figure out her own problems and her own solutions. She couldn’t ask for help.

and through that process with her, it got her to a space where she not only felt like she could receive help and and accept it, but also ask for it and advocate for herself. And in that specific environment, once she started doing some of those pieces, there was a pretty deep realization that she had that this environment just was not something that was there to support her anymore and just wasn’t aligned with her, and she decided to move, move on. And she’s now created her own business at this point.

But that I think is something that’s so crucial, I think, for people to realize is that the direct experiences that you’re having are all a direct reflection of your mind. It’s not something that’s happening external to you. And that gave her an element of control back. And she had a lot of anxiety previously. And by the time we finished working together, we worked together for about a year, that deep realization of, I can change all of this. This is all

Possibility for me. It was a night and day difference. And like the main peace I can express is just from the beginning when I worked with her, there was really no light in her eyes. And by the end, it was like there was light in her eyes. Like I could see the passion and the enthusiasm and the true like life force energy seeping out of her that was not there before.

Dr. Rob (23:38.863)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (23:50.352)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (23:50.5)
That’s beautiful. You know, one of the things that I always say about shadow work is people think shadow work is about healing the past or inner child work and all this stuff. But what shadow work does is actually it’s a way for you, it’s an experience of your own mind and your own projections. And once you see that your mind is creating these experiences and these characters in your life, it gives you your power back. So it really is about reclaiming your power. It’s not about fixing.

parts of your personality or healing parts of your past. It’s more about the breaking free of that almost like externally focused, the world out there is is, you know, I have to navigate this world. And then really realizing that the mind is in my mind is projecting and making a lot of problems that aren’t there. And and that really is such a freedom is like almost like I was thinking seeing the matrix and it’s the beginning of us changing.

And I think that’s what brings light to people, not healing the past, but it brings light to people having that empowerment to know that they can change their life.

Dr. Rob (24:50.622)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (24:57.752)
Yeah, that’s wonderful. Can I ask you just briefly, the you know, we all have this calling to help others. what’s been your experience in in kind of acquiring these tools, right? And you obviously are doing the work for yourself, right? We’re we simply kind of provide the training and the the tools, but it’s the your dedication that gives you that ability to.

Drew Turner (24:58.679)
Completely agree.

Debra Maldonado (25:00.045)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (25:26.768)
to actually transmit it to others, right? And and coach others through it. What can you share about kind of your personal experience of of how that feels? Like what what does it give you as a coach when when you help people this way?

Drew Turner (25:46.797)
That’s a really good question. I think the main way for me to try to explain that. A couple weeks ago I had a consult with a woman that actually found me through AI, which was awesome. And by the end of the call, she said almost verbatim to me, In the past thirty minutes I’ve felt more seen than I did in a decade of therapy.

Karen Chen (25:51.681)
Thank

Drew Turner (26:11.629)
And it’s that, like for the rest of the day, I was just on this high. Like I was just, I describe it as almost like a buzzing sensation, you know, of like wow, like the the ability that we have to see other people, especially I think so much of the world has not experienced that of feeling seen, feeling heard, feeling understood at such a deep level.

Again, even saying it just gives me goosebumps. Like it’s it’s so empowering. And I remember the very first client that I had after our very first like ninety minute session where we did the whole intake. I remember getting off that call and again, barely slept that night. Like I was just buzzing with just excitement and energy because of in that one ninety minute session, how much we uncovered for her. And I think it’s, you know

What Miguel was saying of it also shows us big parts of ourselves, I think too. It just reinforces our why, I think for me. like that woman I had a consult with a few weeks ago. At the time I was I felt a little bit disconnected from my why. Like I I knew why I was doing it, but I, you know, hadn’t had a direct experience with it in a while. And

She almost forbade him asking that question, like, what got you into this work? Why do you do this? And in explaining that to her, it was like, my gosh, yeah, like that’s my why. You know, it’s to help people see just the true impact they can actually have and who they truly are, and that they’re not limited in this life that we’re in, you know? yeah, but I think it’s it’s such an empowering feeling. Like words I don’t think can really describe it properly, of just the amount of enthusiasm and

Dr. Rob (27:40.736)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (27:41.709)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Turner (28:04.099)
think just life force energy. Like I after I got off that console, like I probably knocked seven other things off my to-do list for my business because it was like, I have all this energy. Let’s go use it now, you know? yeah, that’s a long winded way of I think answering your question, Doctor O.

Dr. Rob (28:11.216)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (28:16.654)
I love that.

Dr. Rob (28:20.686)
No, that’s perfect. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that.

Debra Maldonado (28:23.449)
Yeah. Yeah, thank you, Drew. That was way amazing. Okay, let’s go to the lovely Dr. Chen. Hi, Karen.

Karen Chen (28:34.909)
Hi. Yeah, such beautiful shares. I’m so grateful to be part of this community. Yeah, it’s been, yeah, really amazing and quite the journey. It’s hard to find the words, but yeah, the process of individuation through Young’s work and how you guys have…

presented it has like changed the entire architecture of my life and in you know the most beautiful way possible also but also you know with great transformation you know does does come pain but you have the you have the tools

to kind of work through all those deep, intense emotions and it’s coming home to yourself. It’s becoming who you actually came to this earth to be versus wearing that mask, you whatever that mask is, you know, at home and at work.

Debra Maldonado (29:59.824)
So what brought you to the journey initially? You were or you are a psychiatrist and and what made you like think, well, let’s let me try coaching. It you know, it’s not a well, I guess that is com more common. A lot of therapists and psychiatrists are moving out of the the medical model, but what what was it for you that that you needed that individuation filled for you?

Karen Chen (30:26.86)
Yes. So I think from a practical standpoint, from my career standpoint, I am a psychiatrist by profession. yeah, it obviously, the medical model does offer, you know, it is very rich and fruitful and useful and good. But I found that there were elements missing from it that I was craving.

within my career and also within my own personal work. and so I would say, yeah, for, you know, years I’ve, you know, kind of been on a journey to search for what those missing elements were. and that’s, know, how I came to you guys. and I guess succinctly it’s,

Mmm.

It’s that sort of deeper level of understanding of our patterns. And it’s that deeper level of feeling and processing our emotions that can be missing from the medical model, not always. But, you know, this is very in-depth work. The process of individuation is…

you know, like stepping and going through the fire. It’s very powerful. It’s very intense. It’s, I mean, as far as I’ve been a human, it’s the deepest work I’ve ever done. And, you know, it happens in layers and, you know, in the course of my career, you know, I think, you know, a lot of

Karen Chen (32:29.839)
the work I did in the medical model, I found that it didn’t go deep enough, I guess, for my liking. And it also just kind of depends on the person and where they’re at. And some people are definitely far more ready for individuation than others. And then, in terms of the emotional piece, in terms of the medical model traditionally,

There can be an element of numbing or just kind of putting a bandaid on things and not to oversimplify and it’s still very important and there is depth work within traditional psychiatry. But it did also seem like just from my perspective and just

you know, the depth that I like to work at, that there were just a lot of, yeah, emotions that were sort of still being avoided and covered up rather than, you know, feeling them more fully so that we are able to process it and individuate and become who we really truly, you know, came, you know, into this world to be.

Dr. Rob (33:55.204)
Yeah. Yeah, I like that you you bring this up because coaching traditionally is seen as kind of staying on the surface, right? Goal-oriented, those kind of things. And of course we there is some of that in our approach, but because we use Jung’s model of the psyche, like you said, we immediately we find ourselves at those deeper layers of

What what are the emotions that are creating this situation and this experience? And we don’t shy away from those, right? We we have the tools to w to work with any emotion, any experience. and

I’ll I’ll

Debra Maldonado (34:44.559)
Can I ask a question to both of you? Cause you’re clinicians or come from the clinical world. And this is a question I get from clients, I get from our coaches. this kind of fear of going toward the uncomfortable emotions that we’re gonna like hurt someone or, you know, they’re gonna get fall like it have a like a collapse of, you know, something you’re gonna hurt them in some way. what are the what would you say to that question?

Dr. Rob (34:49.538)
Yeah, yeah.

Debra Maldonado (35:12.191)
Karen, like you’ve worked with like seriously people that needed serious care. and then the people that seek coaching don’t you don’t really need you don’t had that same problem, but sometimes what would you say about that for going deeper with your clients or even with the people that are kind of on the like more the un I don’t know how how to say it unregulated with their emotions and that what

Karen Chen (35:18.142)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (35:42.211)
What would you say to that question?

Karen Chen (35:45.188)
Yeah, so I think it’s a great question and it can be a delicate line. And the best thing is to trust your intuition with that because I do think, truly there are people who aren’t ready for individuation and the best thing that we can do, as clinicians and coaches in general is to take our ego out of the equation. and you know,

try and provide what’s needed for that person’s higher good at any given moment. And I am personally getting better at deciphering, you know, who is ready for this process and, you know, who needs more, you know, time with other techniques or even, you know, it’s very…

also like session dependent so if you if you find in a moment that you know someone isn’t able to go any deeper or dig any further because you know for right now that you know button is is too painful then then you then you just trust your intuition and know that that’s the time to pull back and so it’s it’s a very dynamic process and i think that the more that you trust yourself

whether you’re a clinician or a coach or both, the more you’ll know the right time to do what or proceed or to not. What I will say is that people surprise you and you keep an open mind. And there are people I’ve worked with that I thought that they were ready for this and

we actually decided not to continue forward because it wasn’t the right time for them and that’s okay. And then there were other people where initially I was like, ooh, they’re going through a lot. I really don’t think they’re ready for this. And they show up session after session and then they’re like, I need…

Karen Chen (38:10.745)
to figure out what’s really going on. And then we actually go there and it’s actually very, it’s kind of fascinating. But I would say, yeah, the two key points are to trust your own judgment and intuition and to keep an open mind.

Dr. Rob (38:29.528)
Yeah. Yeah, that that reminds me that I I’ve had that experience myself where I I s I sometimes like, you know, our mind, our brain kind of prejudges people just from their initial contact with them. And I often think this person’s not ready for this in depth work, but they surprised me and they

Debra Maldonado (38:29.733)
Like that. Rob, do you have anything to add to that?

Dr. Rob (38:58.756)
They just take to it and they find their way. Because I I think it’s like Jung says, it’s our nature to question our mind and question the nature of our experiences. It’s the most natural thing. we’re designed for it. and so yeah, I’m I’m glad you brought that up. That’s awesome. Thank you.

Debra Maldonado (39:23.245)
And what would you say, you know, working with clients is the most impactful part of the process for them? what do you f what do you find is like the thing that shifts them in a bigger way? Or do you have an example or something to share?

Karen Chen (39:39.947)
Yes. So, yeah, I was thinking about the themes for the people that I’ve worked with so far since I switched over pathways to focus more on the coaching. So.

Yeah, I would say a lot of people come to me, they can’t pinpoint, you know, what’s wrong, you know, sometimes they can, but sometimes, lot of the times they can’t. And there’s sort of like an existential crisis type of situation or feeling. And so what I end up working with a lot with people is actually finding their true purpose in life.

And I’ve worked with people in their 20s who, you know, like I worked with a young man his 20s who entered a career in law. And it was, you know, sort of his family’s profession. And, you know, he felt compelled to enter it and, you know, took out lot of loans. And then,

then he realized that, you know, actually practicing law that he didn’t like it so much. And, you know, there are other things that he, you know, wanted to pursue. But also practically, you know, you know, at this point in life financially, he, you know, had has to kind of continue with it for the time being.

you know, just helping his eyes open to the fact that, you know, this doesn’t have to be forever. You know, this, you know, can be one chapter of his life, a stepping stone to something else. And, you know, there’s, there’s wrong with him that he doesn’t like law, you know, like everything looks fine on paper sort of thing. But, you know, something kind of fell off. And,

Karen Chen (41:59.006)
I would say another big category that I do end up working with, and I do think it is very deeply related with purpose too, is relationships. And yeah, these are, I would say, yeah, older women. I’ve had a couple of clients who they’ve been caregivers their whole life. And this is something that I can identify with.

Dr. Rob (42:07.812)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (42:15.76)
Yeah.

Karen Chen (42:28.517)
and they are just kind of, tired, are tired of over giving and they want something else to identify with or to find purpose in other than just taking care of the people around them. And yeah, it’s. Yeah. Been a beautiful process to explore with them just what they can pursue and what they can find.

joy in outside of the role of caretaking. And yeah, I mean, I can give more examples, but yeah, it’s been.

Debra Maldonado (43:03.469)
And they do that through shadow work. Shad shadow work is specifically how you approach that with them?

Karen Chen (43:11.881)
Yes. So I think I do a mix of everything. I do a lot of shadow work. do emotional processing with them within the session, like active imaginations and yeah. So, because a lot of…

Debra Maldonado (43:32.537)
So I’m just clarifying it’s not just like you can do anything and think of something else. You’re like actually they’re finding it within themselves.

Karen Chen (43:40.646)
Yes, yeah, and the process of individuation, of course. Yeah, which can actually occur in any age, in case anyone was wondering. can be, you can, I think there’s sort of perhaps an ideal range, but I think I have helped people even in their 20s, even though I think that’s on earlier end. And yeah, I’ve had clients in their 70s, and you can do it then.

Debra Maldonado (43:44.245)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (44:00.848)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Rob (44:02.927)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (44:10.009)
Yeah. And I think this idea of midlife, I was thinking about this this morning that everyone thinks it’s like the mid of all life, like the midpoint. But it midlife means like bef after you’re a kid and you get out of college is that middle life. It’s it should be middle life, not midlife. It’s the middle part of our life. It’s the meat of our life, right? That we live most of our we have most energy, the most health, the the the most opportunity. And we don’t wanna wait till we’re well, some people

We’ve had people in their seventies take our program too and it’s like, you know, they wish they could have found it sooner. But yeah, I’ve seen people in early twenties. So it’s like that middle of adulthood is when when we wake up. We have the opportunity to as well.

All right. Well I’d like to do a little panel discussion of anything that came up for you with everyone else. Anything anyone wants to add, I’m gonna mute you all and

Dr. Rob (45:02.124)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (45:06.255)
bring you on and so anyone wanna share anything that inspired you from the this conversation?

Miguel Santos (45:18.745)
I c can I talk Deborah? Yes, thank you. No, so I think I actually one you asked me what was the most important thing and I think w we should talk about triggers because triggers w came from for me, it’s also related to emotions. But we think triggers I’m getting triggered by this person or by this event. And we think it’s so bad, they are so this or that, we have this judgment about them.

Debra Maldonado (45:21.165)
You sure can. Yes, you can.

Miguel Santos (45:45.455)
And this is where the the the the shadow work starts when you have this trigger. Okay. Th there you should go to the trigger. Like you f you it should look how how how how you are feeling and not judging the others and judge not not judging yourself too, but it’s like how how you can go with the trigger. Because this is the really I thought

Because I you think that I my mother educated my parents educated me so well, I’m so good. Everything that is not like me it’s bad. So it’s this is the the most important thing I learned that okay, d people can be different, they can react in a different way, and when they react in a different way it’s not bad. It’s you you judging them. So this is part of the shadow work. So this is was f what came from

Dr. Rob (46:16.194)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (46:32.057)
Have you seen the opposite too? Cause you there’s people that have anxiety and they’re very aware of what’s going on in their body. And then, and this is the panel question for everyone. I’ve worked with people who have no idea that they’re even triggered because they don’t they’re not even feeling they’re so into the intellect. And they’re that triggers are happening, but they’re kind of intellectualizing them and they’re not really in their body and not really in con and so when they start working with triggers, it almost like brings them back into

Drew Turner (46:47.393)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (47:00.793)
Like looking inward.

Miguel Santos (47:03.889)
Yeah, because you sorry, then when you feel the anxiety you think I get I have to get rid of this anxiety, I have to get rid of this. Why I’m and the the the trick is actually the opposite. You go to the anxiety and feel maybe, okay, what is trying to tell me? And not get rid of it. Because you you want to get rid and like g do a marathon or do start running or to go to the gym to do some weight lifting or the do s you want to numb the the the the the emotion and

Dr. Rob (47:13.242)
Yeah.

Miguel Santos (47:33.147)
And actually the work is opposite. You you go to the emotion, feel it. I’m not saying I’m not telling that you should not run or should go to the gym, but I’m telling you you should also feel the emotion. Yeah. No, no. Not true. I go to the gym every day actually, you go to practice sports and stuff like that. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (47:41.281)
Ha ha ha.

Miguel says, Don’t go to the gym, meditate.

Dr. Rob (47:46.509)
Mm-hmm.

Debra Maldonado (47:50.443)
I’m kidding. Okay. All right. You do both, right? Drew, did you have something to share?

Drew Turner (47:57.84)
Yeah, you just took the words right out of my mouth. Literally, as Karen was talking, something I just jotted down was how active imagination I think has been probably one of the most impactful pieces of both my own work and also the work I do with women, because it helps us get out of our heads and into our bodies. Because so often we go back to the just rationalizing it and, you know, putting a label on it and saying, Nope, that’s not today. We’re gonna bury that deep.

You know, and it isn’t until we go in and feel the emotion. And for someone that is constantly, I know I’m always in my head, in order to actually turn that off, I need to go into some type of meditation or active imagination in order to actually feel it. And it’s so impactful because almost immediately I’ve done so many active imaginations where I go in and I there’s a big heavy emotion that I’m feeling.

within a fifteen twenty minute active imagination I come out the other side feeling so much lighter.

It’s so impactful and almost instant. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (49:09.795)
It’s like you’re purifying the mind, right? You’re purifying it like as you go toward it.

Jung says that something that has arisen in me that needs my attention, it’s like that’s what a trigger is. It’s that kind of it’s a it’s a part of ourselves that wants to be known. And we all in the West want to like get rid of it, heal it, push it down, run from it, go to the gym. And yeah. And I I found too a lot of corporate people, and I’m for myself too. I thought I was so in touch with my emotions until I did shadow work. And then when I did shadow work, I was like, ooh, I have a lot of anger here. I didn’t even know I had.

Dr. Rob (49:32.24)
Debra Maldonado (49:46.726)
and and it comes like I like a little frustration. I call it anger light, you know, and it’s like we we kind of tolerate things and especially the people pleaser women that are over f over functioning, overgiving, and kind of keeping everything there. And then when they start doing the shadow work, it’s like, my god, I could be pissed off right now, and it’s okay. And it’s like not to release it just to release it, but to be like, what is this about? And what you know, it’s it’s almost like I find the anger.

Dr. Rob (50:03.503)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (50:16.407)
is a part of ourselves that’s like, stand up for yourself, girl. Like what are you doing? Like it’s a frustrated part of ourselves that is wishing we would we we would have more in our life, you know, for ourselves. That’s how I see it. It’s not a bad thing. But we end up project it on other people.

Drew Turner (50:35.56)
Mm-hmm. And I totally hear you on that. Cause I think that anger specifically is something that has come up so heavily for me. I think about halfway through maybe the first year. and it was like, where is all this anger coming from? And it’s it’s yeah, it’s it’s the version of me that wishes she had stood up for herself and, you know, changed the situation before it got to the point that it did. but something else I wanted to mention too, based off what Karen was saying, is

Dr. Rob (50:46.704)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Turner (51:04.083)
Really, I think what individuation has done for me is it gave me the ability to navigate uncertainty. And this goes back to, I think, one of the lectures that Dr. Rob did too of our ego wants certainty. We want to be able to project the future and be able to say what’s going to happen, right? That takes kind of all the fun out of life, you know? Like it doesn’t allow for surprises or anything spontaneous to happen. And

Karen Chen (51:12.432)
and

Dr. Rob (51:26.36)
Yeah.

Dr. Rob (51:30.296)
Mm-hmm.

Drew Turner (51:31.571)
Being able to feel safe in just who I am in my body gave me the ability to be like, Uncertainty is great, let’s go try stuff and see what happens, you know.

Debra Maldonado (51:41.955)
Mm.

no, that’s beautiful.

Karen, any last words? Any shares?

Dr. Rob (51:48.858)
Yeah.

Karen Chen (51:52.412)
Yeah, I resonate with all of this. So yeah, in terms of the triggers and going towards the emotion, I mean, that is just exactly it. I think there are society is just built in such a way that there’s a million ways that you can avoid your emotions. And I get it because

for however long, humans are just, we’re just surviving. We’re just staying alive. And now we want more. We want to thrive. We want to feel fulfilled. And that requires, you know, going towards it, but in a safe space, in a way that’s just, yeah, very healing and productive. And yeah, this motivates me to do even more.

active imaginations on a regular basis. So it’s easy to fall, you you just, get caught up with life and you don’t, you know, sometimes you need to do them. You just need to stop and do them and just feel better and be able to process and then be able to actually do what you’re scrambling around trying to do. But yeah, this is, yeah, I don’t know.

Dr. Rob (52:47.802)
No.

Debra Maldonado (52:47.903)
I know. I’m gonna go work on my triggers.

Debra Maldonado (53:13.721)
One thing that comes to mind, yeah. One thing that comes to mind is I remember like when I first started personal development, before I met Rob and Andrew Smitty Jung, I was doing like the pop psychology, you know, like move away from pain to move toward pleasure, make everything pretty and put light around it. And what what was taught was your gut, if it feels bad, you should avoid it. And if feels good, you should go toward it. Like it’s your intuition.

Karen Chen (53:14.095)
Could be biased, but the best workout there.

Dr. Rob (53:16.824)
Yeah.

Debra Maldonado (53:42.318)
And what I found through working with our triggers and being familiar with our own emotional reactions, it’s actually giving us information of of more of the opposite of I’m feeling really uncomfortable. I think I need to go for this. this feels too easy. I think I’m going back into an old pattern. So it’s basically a reverse because we’re conditioned through avoiding pain. And so we’re unconditioning ourselves by going toward what’s discomforting, what’s uncomfortable.

And for me, it’s been a different navigation system by being really in touch with my feelings and being terrified of things and going, my God, I have to do this now because it it really terrifies me. So I know there’s something here versus let’s just stay with, you know, the the night my follow the light. Rob, what do you have to say about that?

Dr. Rob (54:32.272)
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it’s one of the biggest lessons that Jung left us is that the the emotional energy is the fuel of our psyche. In other words, it’s where inspiration comes from, it’s where motivation comes from, creativity, all these great things that we value really come from the emotional.

kind of being in touch with your emotions. And so when we when we learn to avoid them, to dampen them, to tone them down, we’re kind of cheating ourselves because then we don’t have access to that power. All that energy is kind of outside of our awareness. We’re kind of stashing it away instead of using it and saying, hey, this moment is worth

Karen Chen (55:25.448)
.

Dr. Rob (55:29.242)
putting everything I got into it. And when we do that, then our life really works. because we’re present to it.

Debra Maldonado (55:42.457)
That’s great. Well, I wanted to just have one last thank you for I wanted to have one last thank you for all of you for coming on the show today. And we will have your links to how to people can contact you in the show notes below. we really just appreciate all your wisdom and sharing your experience. And I love this discussion. It’s been really amazing.

Dr. Rob (56:08.996)
Yeah. Thank you guys for showing up, for sharing some of your wisdom. I know that these are little snippets of what what kind of work you do with your clients, but it it gives us and then gives people hopefully a little window into what is it that we’re doing in Creative Mind with the young end coaching. so thank you. We really appreciate.

Debra Maldonado (56:32.516)
Yeah. Thank you all. You guys are all brilliant. And of course we wish you the best of luck in your future and appreciate you. Take care, everyone. See you next week. Welcome. Bye bye.

Miguel Santos (56:43.269)
Thank you.

Drew Turner (56:44.606)
Thanks so much.

Miguel Santos (56:46.608)
Thank you very much.